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Ken S. Tucker
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 Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 12:40 am Post subject: Global warming 12,000 BC. |
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12,000 years ago, during the ice-age, the
glaciers began melting, so all the cavemen
got together, agreed that global warming
was occuring very quickly and decided to
ban fire.
One caveman even predicted Greenland
would be habitable by 1000AD, that was
real scary, but he was right and likely
the Arctic ice-caps had melted by then.
The Vikings set-up some shipping between
Scandanavia, Iceland, Greenland and Canada,
and they weren't bothered by icebergs, I
wonder why they weren't?
Regards
Ken |
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Ken S. Tucker
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 4:49 am Post subject: Re: Global warming 12,000 BC. |
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On Jul 2, 8:10 pm, david.willi...@bayman.org (David Williams) wrote:
| Quote: |
-> Well then it's news to you, study up there kid  .
-> And use accurate terms, it's inaccurate to misquote
-> by implication "settlers" on E island, I specifically
-> wrote "traders", as in "sea access".
-> Recently, much more exploration activity has been
-> done up north, and reveals factual evidence of Viking
-> trade at that latitude, btw it's a surprise to me too.
-> What does that mean visa-via the ice cap?
-> Regards
-> Ken
What have been found are Viking artifacts up on Ellesmere Island and
other places. This does *not* prove that Vikings actually went there,
any more than the presence of Roman coins in the Royal Ontario Museum
proves that ancient Romans came here. It is quite plausible that
Vikings traded them to Inuit in southern Greenland, and the Inuit then
carried them north.
It has been suggested that Vikings travelled northward up the west
coast of Greenland, until they reached the very narrow strait that
separates Greenland from Ellesmere Island. From there, they *might*
have travelled southward along the coasts of Ellesmere and Baffin
Islands. They *might* have done it by ship, if the weather was warm
enough, or by walking on the land and ice if not. But this is all just
hypothesis. There is no proof, and not even strong evidence.
It is certain that Vikings were at L'Anse aux Meadows, near the
northern tip of the island of Newfoundland. The remains of their
settlement there are known, and have been investigated. But everything
else about the Viking presence west of Greenland is purely speculative.
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Dave I'm worried about you.
"near the northern tip of the island of Newfoundland"
"west of Greenland is purely speculative"
is a historic and geographic contradiction.
Read what you post. Lately, there are too many logic
bombs for me to correct.
Regards
Ken |
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David Williams
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 5:03 am Post subject: Re: Global warming 12,000 BC. |
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-> LOL, how did Vikings establish trade routes to
-> Ellesmere Island (1100AD) , when Baffin 1600 AD
-> couldn't do it ??? and he had a better ship!
-> Once again, I'm afraid your understanding of history
-> is less than complete . zinger...........
-> Ken
What are you trying to prove? That there was less ice in about 1000 CE
than in 1600? That may well be true. The climate cooled significantly
in the 1200s, with the result that the Viking colonies west of Iceland
died out. So what?
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David Williams
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 5:11 am Post subject: Re: Global warming 12,000 BC. |
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-> The Vikings did usually not row their ocean-going vessels, these were
-> sailing ships.
But they lacked the ability to tack into the wind. When the wind was
blowing from the west, as it usually does in the North Atlantic, the
only way the Vikings could move westward was by rowing.
But they didn't have to cross the whole ocean in one voyage. They
established colonies on islands, Orkney, Shetland, Faroes, Iceland,
Greenland, and possibly Ellesmere Island, before reaching the mainland
of North America in what is now northern Quebec, and travelling
southward to the settlement at the northern tip of Newfoundland, which
is the furthest west that their presence can be definitely established.
Each hop of the journey would have taken only a few days.
This time next week I'll be in Iceland...
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David Williams
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 5:15 am Post subject: Re: Global warming 12,000 BC. |
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-> I wrote, that's a start. You certainly can't expect an
-> expert to research for a student!
-> Regards
-> Ken
Do you consider yourself to be an expert in Norse history?
Whose head has swelled?
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sigvaldi
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 7:26 am Post subject: Re: Global warming 12,000 BC. |
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On Jul 3, 12:11 am, david.willi...@bayman.org (David Williams) wrote:
| Quote: |
-> The Vikings did usually not row their ocean-going vessels, these were
-> sailing ships.
But they lacked the ability to tack into the wind. When the wind was
blowing from the west, as it usually does in the North Atlantic, the
only way the Vikings could move westward was by rowing.
|
The Viking ocean going vessels, the knorr, had the ability to tuck
into the wind.
No need for rowing on ocean crossings. The Viking longships often had
to be rowed, however.
| Quote: |
But they didn't have to cross the whole ocean in one voyage. They
established colonies on islands, Orkney, Shetland, Faroes, Iceland,
Greenland, and possibly Ellesmere Island, before reaching the mainland
of North America in what is now northern Quebec, and travelling
southward to the settlement at the northern tip of Newfoundland, which
is the furthest west that their presence can be definitely established.
Each hop of the journey would have taken only a few days.
|
The Vikings had the navigational abilty to follow latitudes (using
sunstones) and the sagas describe journeys that followed a longitude
out of Bergen, That way you could sail directly across to Greenland
non-stop.
| Quote: |
This time next week I'll be in Iceland...
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I am already here. |
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David Williams
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 8:10 am Post subject: Re: Global warming 12,000 BC. |
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-> Well then it's news to you, study up there kid .
-> And use accurate terms, it's inaccurate to misquote
-> by implication "settlers" on E island, I specifically
-> wrote "traders", as in "sea access".
-> Recently, much more exploration activity has been
-> done up north, and reveals factual evidence of Viking
-> trade at that latitude, btw it's a surprise to me too.
-> What does that mean visa-via the ice cap?
-> Regards
-> Ken
What have been found are Viking artifacts up on Ellesmere Island and
other places. This does *not* prove that Vikings actually went there,
any more than the presence of Roman coins in the Royal Ontario Museum
proves that ancient Romans came here. It is quite plausible that
Vikings traded them to Inuit in southern Greenland, and the Inuit then
carried them north.
It has been suggested that Vikings travelled northward up the west
coast of Greenland, until they reached the very narrow strait that
separates Greenland from Ellesmere Island. From there, they *might*
have travelled southward along the coasts of Ellesmere and Baffin
Islands. They *might* have done it by ship, if the weather was warm
enough, or by walking on the land and ice if not. But this is all just
hypothesis. There is no proof, and not even strong evidence.
It is certain that Vikings were at L'Anse aux Meadows, near the
northern tip of the island of Newfoundland. The remains of their
settlement there are known, and have been investigated. But everything
else about the Viking presence west of Greenland is purely speculative.
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Ken S. Tucker
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 8:23 am Post subject: Re: Global warming 12,000 BC. |
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Hi Sigvaldi, Dave and all....
On Jul 3, 12:26 am, sigvaldi <sigv...@binet.is> wrote:
| Quote: |
On Jul 3, 12:11 am, david.willi...@bayman.org (David Williams) wrote:
-> The Vikings did usually not row their ocean-going vessels, these were
-> sailing ships.
But they lacked the ability to tack into the wind. When the wind was
blowing from the west, as it usually does in the North Atlantic, the
only way the Vikings could move westward was by rowing.
The Viking ocean going vessels, the knorr, had the ability to tuck
into the wind.
No need for rowing on ocean crossings. The Viking longships often had
to be rowed, however.
But they didn't have to cross the whole ocean in one voyage. They
established colonies on islands, Orkney, Shetland, Faroes, Iceland,
Greenland, and possibly Ellesmere Island, before reaching the mainland
of North America in what is now northern Quebec, and travelling
southward to the settlement at the northern tip of Newfoundland, which
is the furthest west that their presence can be definitely established.
Each hop of the journey would have taken only a few days.
The Vikings had the navigational abilty to follow latitudes (using
sunstones) and the sagas describe journeys that followed a longitude
out of Bergen, That way you could sail directly across to Greenland
non-stop.
This time next week I'll be in Iceland...
I am already here.
|
That's cool, we have an Icelander, nice.
Where Viking navigation is concerned, I think the
Phoenicians perfected that in BC times, it's even
rumored the Pho's did Scandanavia, hence our
friend Sigvaldi may be of Pho descent.
Recall that Longitude needs a time piece for measure
and Latitude is rather simple off the North star...etc.
Pho's had hour glass type devices , don't know for
sure what the Vikings used to establish Longitude,
but probably a similiar deal.
As I'm sure you are aware of, the English developed
a chronometer for purposes of Longitude.
Anyway, in my understanding of history, the Pho's
had Longitudinal navigation capablity and led
expeditions over deserts and through forests, and
that skill was a secret skill for which they were well
paid.
That was back in the good ole days before any
idiot could buy a GPS unit!
So the Vikings could have easily used a hour glass
to do Longitude.
Regards
Ken |
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David Williams
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 8:14 pm Post subject: Re: Global warming 12,000 BC. |
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-> > It is certain that Vikings were at L'Anse aux Meadows, near the
-> > northern tip of the island of Newfoundland. The remains of their
-> > settlement there are known, and have been investigated. But everything
-> > else about the Viking presence west of Greenland is purely speculative.
-> Dave I'm worried about you.
-> "near the northern tip of the island of Newfoundland"
-> "west of Greenland is purely speculative"
-> is a historic and geographic contradiction.
-> Read what you post. Lately, there are too many logic
-> bombs for me to correct.
-> Regards
-> Ken
Look at a map of Newfoundland. There is a long peninsula pointing
northward from the north-west coast of the main part of the island. The
tip of this peninsula is the northernmost point of the island, and
L'Anse aux Meadows is close to this tip, on the eastern side of the
peninsula.
Look at a map of the earth. North America is further west than
Greenland. The Vikings were certainly in Greenland, but there is only
one piece of really solid evidence that they ever travelled further
west, i.e. to North America. This solid evidence is the settlement at
L'Anse aux Meadows, the remains of which still exist. All the other
so-called evidence, the Norse artifacts that have been found on
Ellesmere Island, for example, is open to other interpretations. They
could have been taken there by Inuits who traded with the Vikings in
Greenland.
If you are unable to appreciate the logic of this, then maybe you
should worry about yourself.
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David Williams
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 8:15 pm Post subject: Re: Global warming 12,000 BC. |
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-> > This time next week I'll be in Iceland...
-> I am already here.
If you like, send me a private e-mail with your address. I might get a
chance to visit you.
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David Williams
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 8:33 pm Post subject: Re: Global warming 12,000 BC. |
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-> That's cool, we have an Icelander, nice.
-> Where Viking navigation is concerned, I think the
-> Phoenicians perfected that in BC times, it's even
-> rumored the Pho's did Scandanavia, hence our
-> friend Sigvaldi may be of Pho descent.
So may you. So may I. If you go back a few hundred generations,
everyone is related to everyone else.
-> Recall that Longitude needs a time piece for measure
-> and Latitude is rather simple off the North star...etc.
-> Pho's had hour glass type devices , don't know for
-> sure what the Vikings used to establish Longitude,
-> but probably a similiar deal.
Thye star we now call the Pole Star wasn't close to the celestial pole
in Phoenician times. The precession of the earth's axis has carried it
close to the pole only in the past 1000 years or so, allowing it to be
used as a simple indicator of latitude. This may explain why many
peoples e.g. the Polynesians and Chinese, as well as Europeans, began
to travel long distances by sea only quite recently.
-> As I'm sure you are aware of, the English developed
-> a chronometer for purposes of Longitude.
-> Anyway, in my understanding of history, the Pho's
-> had Longitudinal navigation capablity and led
-> expeditions over deserts and through forests, and
-> that skill was a secret skill for which they were well
-> paid.
-> That was back in the good ole days before any
-> idiot could buy a GPS unit!
-> So the Vikings could have easily used a hour glass
-> to do Longitude.
-> Regards
-> Ken
To "do longitude" at all accurately, you need a timepiece that will
gain or lose very little time over the period you will take to do your
voyage. If your clock is wrong by an hour, your estimate of longitude
will be wrong by 15 degrees. If it is wrong by only a minute, you'll be
wrong by 15 arc-minutes, i.e. about 15 nautical miles. Since long
voyages took months or years, chronometers were needed that would gain
or lose no more than a few minutes in that much time. The British were
the first to achieve this accuracy, which helped them in their
explorations.
The notion than an hour-glass would be sufficient is ludicrous.
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BBO
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 10:11 pm Post subject: Re: Global warming 12,000 BC. |
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sigvaldi wrote:
| Quote: |
On Jul 3, 12:11 am, david.willi...@bayman.org (David Williams) wrote:
-> The Vikings did usually not row their ocean-going vessels, these were
-> sailing ships.
But they lacked the ability to tack into the wind. When the wind was
blowing from the west, as it usually does in the North Atlantic, the
only way the Vikings could move westward was by rowing.
The Viking ocean going vessels, the knorr, had the ability to tuck
into the wind.
No need for rowing on ocean crossings. The Viking longships often had
to be rowed, however.
|
Here is a link to a great resource of all things norse ships, also the
knorr and the long ship:
http://www.hurstwic.org/history/articles/manufacturing/text/norse_ships.htm
--
You can't be a rational person six days a week...and on one day of the
week, go to a building, and think you're drinking the blood of a two
thousand year old space god. -- Bill Maher |
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Ken S. Tucker
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 11:09 pm Post subject: Re: Global warming 12,000 BC. |
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On Jul 3, 10:11 am, BBO <az...@dod.no> wrote:
| Quote: |
sigvaldi wrote:
On Jul 3, 12:11 am, david.willi...@bayman.org (David Williams) wrote:
-> The Vikings did usually not row their ocean-going vessels, these were
-> sailing ships.
But they lacked the ability to tack into the wind. When the wind was
blowing from the west, as it usually does in the North Atlantic, the
only way the Vikings could move westward was by rowing.
The Viking ocean going vessels, the knorr, had the ability to tuck
into the wind.
No need for rowing on ocean crossings. The Viking longships often had
to be rowed, however.
Here is a link to a great resource of all things norse ships, also the
knorr and the long ship:
http://www.hurstwic.org/history/articles/manufacturing/text/norse_shi...
|
Thanks BBO.
Btw, We (wife and I) have been really enjoying our new
orbital sim. We put in a string (like a tape) that automates
the mission, so now we hit GO and watch the craft (s/c)
from launch to lunar orbit...very neat. The program also has
control of space and time for graphics.
We're using a Rotating Coordinate System, connecting
the Earth to the Moon, so we reduced the gravitational
field effect of the Earth on s/c to nil at the Moon by
a centrifugal force expression. That enables us to keep
the Earth and Moon on the x-axis.
Very cool, a bit of General Relativity in that.
Btw, hows that mission to Jupiter going?
Regards
Ken |
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Ken S. Tucker
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 11:18 pm Post subject: Re: Global warming 12,000 BC. |
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On Jul 3, 8:14 am, david.willi...@bayman.org (David Williams) wrote:
| Quote: |
-> > It is certain that Vikings were at L'Anse aux Meadows, near the
-> > northern tip of the island of Newfoundland. The remains of their
-> > settlement there are known, and have been investigated. But everything
-> > else about the Viking presence west of Greenland is purely speculative.
-> Dave I'm worried about you.
-> "near the northern tip of the island of Newfoundland"
-> "west of Greenland is purely speculative"
-> is a historic and geographic contradiction.
-> Read what you post. Lately, there are too many logic
-> bombs for me to correct.
-> Regards
-> Ken
Look at a map of Newfoundland.
|
I did, the area of settlement is relevent, the far north of
Greenland is irrelevent and a "Red Herring"...meaningless.
| Quote: |
There is a long peninsula pointing
northward from the north-west coast of the main part of the island. The
tip of this peninsula is the northernmost point of the island, and
L'Anse aux Meadows is close to this tip, on the eastern side of the
peninsula.
Look at a map of the earth. North America is further west than
Greenland. The Vikings were certainly in Greenland, but there is only
one piece of really solid evidence that they ever travelled further
west, i.e. to North America. This solid evidence is the settlement at
L'Anse aux Meadows, the remains of which still exist. All the other
so-called evidence, the Norse artifacts that have been found on
Ellesmere Island, for example, is open to other interpretations. They
could have been taken there by Inuits who traded with the Vikings in
Greenland.
|
LOL, Dave thinks Inuits carried Viking stuff from Nfld to E-island!
Dave turn OFF the TEEVEE and learn from real experts.
Ken |
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Ken S. Tucker
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 11:36 pm Post subject: Re: Global warming 12,000 BC. |
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On Jul 3, 8:33 am, david.willi...@bayman.org (David Williams) wrote:
| Quote: |
-> That's cool, we have an Icelander, nice.
-> Where Viking navigation is concerned, I think the
-> Phoenicians perfected that in BC times, it's even
-> rumored the Pho's did Scandanavia, hence our
-> friend Sigvaldi may be of Pho descent.
So may you. So may I. If you go back a few hundred generations,
everyone is related to everyone else.
-> Recall that Longitude needs a time piece for measure
-> and Latitude is rather simple off the North star...etc.
-> Pho's had hour glass type devices , don't know for
-> sure what the Vikings used to establish Longitude,
-> but probably a similiar deal.
Thye star we now call the Pole Star wasn't close to the celestial pole
in Phoenician times. The precession of the earth's axis has carried it
close to the pole only in the past 1000 years or so, allowing it to be
used as a simple indicator of latitude. This may explain why many
peoples e.g. the Polynesians and Chinese, as well as Europeans, began
to travel long distances by sea only quite recently.
|
More Red Herrings, read "North star...etc.".
| Quote: |
-> As I'm sure you are aware of, the English developed
-> a chronometer for purposes of Longitude.
-> Anyway, in my understanding of history, the Pho's
-> had Longitudinal navigation capablity and led
-> expeditions over deserts and through forests, and
-> that skill was a secret skill for which they were well
-> paid.
-> That was back in the good ole days before any
-> idiot could buy a GPS unit!
-> So the Vikings could have easily used a hour glass
-> to do Longitude.
-> Regards
-> Ken
To "do longitude" at all accurately, you need a timepiece that will
gain or lose very little time over the period you will take to do your
voyage. If your clock is wrong by an hour, your estimate of longitude
will be wrong by 15 degrees. If it is wrong by only a minute, you'll be
wrong by 15 arc-minutes, i.e. about 15 nautical miles.
|
What's 15 miles, nothing, it's a matter that they could
predict within a day or so of arrival, close enough.
| Quote: |
Since long
voyages took months or years, chronometers were needed that would gain
or lose no more than a few minutes in that much time. The British were
the first to achieve this accuracy, which helped them in their
explorations.
|
LOL, the brits are a zenophobic lot, with history
controlled by an inbred retarded monarchy, I'd
trust wiki before govmonk workers. The Swiss and
Swedes were 100 years ahead of the brits.
| Quote: |
The notion than an hour-glass would be sufficient is ludicrous.
|
You have a habit of underestimating the ingenuity of
everyone except brits .
Ken |
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