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Rodjk #613 Guest
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Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 11:40 pm Post subject: MSNBC on Lincoln and Darwin |
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http://www.newsweek.com/id/143742
How's this for a coincidence? Charles Darwin and Abraham Lincoln were
born in the same year, on the same day: Feb. 12, 1809. As historical
facts go, it amounts to little more than a footnote. Still, while it's
just a coincidence, it's a coincidence that's guaranteed to make you
do a double take the first time you run across it. Everybody knows
Darwin and Lincoln were near-mythic figures in the 19th century. But
who ever thinks of them in tandem? Who puts the theory of evolution
and the Civil War in the same sentence? Why would you, unless you're
writing your dissertation on epochal events in the 19th century? But
instinctively, we want to say that they belong together. It's not just
because they were both great men, and not because they happen to be
exact coevals. Rather, it's because the scientist and the politician
each touched off a revolution that changed the world.
As soon as you do start comparing this odd couple, you discover there
is more to this birthday coincidence than the same astrological chart
(as Aquarians, they should both be stubborn, visionary, tolerant, free-
spirited, rebellious, genial but remote and detached—hmmm, so far so
good). As we approach their shared bicentennial, there is already one
book that gives them double billing, historian David R. Contosta's
"Rebel Giants," with another coming early next year from New Yorker
writer Adam Gopnik. Contosta's joint biography doesn't turn up
anything new, but the biographical parallels he sets forth are enough
to make us see each man afresh. Both lost their mothers in early
childhood. Both suffered from depression (Darwin also suffered from a
variety of crippling stomach ailments and chronic headaches), and both
wrestled with religious doubt. Each had a strained relationship with
his father, and each of them lost children to early death. Both spent
the better part of their 20s trying to settle on a career, and neither
man gave much evidence of his future greatness until well into middle
age: Darwin published "The Origin of Species" when he was 50, and
Lincoln won the presidency a year later. Both men were private and
guarded. Most of Darwin's friendships were conducted through the mail,
and after his five-year voyage on HMS Beagle as a young man, he rarely
left his home in the English countryside. Lincoln, though a much more
public man, carefully cultivated a bumpkin persona that encouraged
both friends and enemies to underestimate his considerable, almost
Machiavellian skill as a politician.
It is a measure of their accomplishments, of how much they changed the
world, that the era into which Lincoln and Darwin was born seems so
strange to us now. On their birth date, Thomas Jefferson had three
weeks left in his second term as president. George III still sat on
the throne of England. The Enlightenment was giving way to
Romanticism. At the center of what people then believed, the tent
poles of their reality were that God created the world and that man
was the crown of creation. Well, some men, since the institution of
slavery was still acceptable on both sides of the Mason-Dixon line—it
would not be abolished in New York state, for example, until 1827, and
while it had been illegal in England since 1772, it would not be
abolished in English colonies until 1833. And Darwin, at least at the
outset, was hardly even a scientist in the sense that we understand
the term—a highly trained specialist whose professional vocabulary is
so arcane that he or she can talk only to other scientists.
Darwin, the man who would almost singlehandedly redefine biological
science, started out as an amateur naturalist, a beetle collector, a
rockhound, a 22-year-old rich-kid dilettante who, after flirting with
the idea of being first a physician and then a preacher, was allowed
to ship out with the Beagle as someone who might supply good
conversation at the captain's table. His father had all but ordered
him not to go to sea, worrying that it was nothing more than one of
Charles's lengthening list of aimless exploits—years before, Dr.
Darwin had scolded his teenage son, saying, "You care for nothing but
shooting, dogs, and rat catching, and you will be a disgrace to
yourself and all your family." How could the father know that when the
son came ashore after his five-year voyage, he would not only have
shed his aimlessness but would have replaced it with a scientific
sense of skepticism and curiosity so rigorous and abiding that he
would be a workaholic almost to the day he died? Darwin was also in
the grip of an idea so subversive that he would keep it under wraps
for another two decades. But the crucial thing is that he did all this
by himself. He became the very model of a modern major scientist
without benefit of graduate school, grants or even much peer review.
(It's hard to get a sympathetic hearing when your work, if successful,
is clearly going to knock the blocks out from under civilization.)
Darwin may have been independently wealthy, but in terms of his
vocation, he was a self-made man.
Lincoln was self-made in the more conventional sense—a walking,
talking embodiment of the frontier myth made good. Like Darwin,
Lincoln was not a quick study. Both men worked slowly to master a
subject. But both had restless, hungry minds. After about a year of
schooling as a boy—and that spread out in dribs and drabs of three
months here and four months there—Lincoln taught himself. He mastered
trigonometry (for work as a surveyor), he read Blackstone on his own
to become a lawyer. He memorized swaths of the Bible and Shakespeare.
At the age of 40, after he had already served a term in the U.S. House
of Representatives, he undertook Euclidean geometry as a mental
exercise. After a while, his myth becomes a little much—he actually
was born in a log cabin with a dirt floor—so much that we begin
looking for flaws, and they're there: the bad marriage, some maladroit
comments on racial inferiority. Then there were those terrible jokes.
But even there, dammit, he could be truly witty: "I have endured a
great deal of ridicule without much malice; and have received a great
deal of kindness, not quite free from ridicule. I am used to it."
Perhaps the most mysterious aspect of this riddlesome man was just how
he managed, somewhere along the way, to turn himself into one of the
best prose writers America has produced. Lincoln united the North
behind him with an eloquence so timeless that his words remain fresh
no matter how many times you read them. Darwin wrote one of the few
scientific treatises, maybe the only one, worth reading as a work of
literature. Both of them demand to be read in the original, not in
paraphrase, because both men are so much in their prose. To read them
is to know these elusive figures a little better. Given their
influence on our lives, these are men you want to know.
Darwin seems to have been able to think only with a pen in his hand.
He was a compulsive note taker and list maker. He made an extensive
list setting down the pros and cons of marriage before he proposed to
his future wife. His first published work, "The Voyage of the Beagle,"
is a tidied-up version of the log he kept on the five-year trip around
the world, and he is unflaggingly meticulous in his observations of
the plant and animal life he saw or collected along the way. To live,
for Darwin, meant looking and examining and then writing down what he
saw and then trying to make sense of it.
__ Read the rest at http://www.newsweek.com/id/143742
Rodjk #613 |
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Bodega Guest
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Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 3:03 am Post subject: Re: MSNBC on Lincoln and Darwin |
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On Jun 29, 6:42 pm, j.wilki...@uq.edu.au (John Wilkins) wrote:
| Quote: |
Steven L. <sdlit...@earthlink.net> wrote:
raven1 wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 16:40:14 -0700 (PDT), "Rodjk #613"
rjka...@gmail.com> wrote:
http://www.newsweek.com/id/143742
A very interesting article, but a bit parochial in its conclusion that
Lincoln was the more significant figure: unsurprisingly, Newsweek
conflates influence on the history of the US with influence on the
world at large.
Lincoln kept the United States from splitting apart into two less
powerful countries. And for the last 100 years, no nation has had a
greater influence on the world than the United States. Thus, Lincoln's
impact on the world was enormous.
Just more indirect.
World history these last 100 years would have gone VERY differently, if
the South had successfully seceded during the Civil War. "Alternate
History" sci-fi writers have had a field day working out possible
consequences of a Southern victory; see, for example, "Bring the
Jubilee" by Ward Moore.
The 20th century was truly an *American* century for the whole world.
Lincoln helped to make that possible.
Come on. Marx was far more significant for the twentieth century than
Darwin and Lincoln combined. Or, if you like political leaders, try
Queen Victoria, Gladstone, Bismarck, Emperor Meiji, all of whom had
equal or greater downstream effects than Lincoln, who really affected
rather minimally one country - his influence in race relations didn't
flower until much later, so he's best remembered for keeping the union
together, and I think that would have been achieved even if Lincoln
hadn't been president.
Darwin's influence is greater than Lincoln's, but even he won't have his
full effect until ordinary culture assimilates the Darwinian revolution,
and that will take, I think, as long as it took for Copernicus'
revolution, around 200 years or more.
|
Bet you wouldn't say that if Germany and Japan had divided up the
Northern Hemisphere (and much of the Southern) between them). In fact,
I bet you wouldn't dare even make a public comment.
> -- |
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phillip brown Guest
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Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 3:22 am Post subject: Re: MSNBC on Lincoln and Darwin |
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On Jun 30, 11:29 am, j.wilki...@uq.edu.au (John Wilkins) wrote:
| Quote: |
raven1 <quoththera...@nevermore.com> wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 16:40:14 -0700 (PDT), "Rodjk #613"
rjka...@gmail.com> wrote:
http://www.newsweek.com/id/143742
A very interesting article, but a bit parochial in its conclusion that
Lincoln was the more significant figure: unsurprisingly, Newsweek
conflates influence on the history of the US with influence on the
world at large.
Lincoln who? Is that the Lincoln of the medieval myth? Darwin, of course
is famous for being the namesake of the Australia city flattened by a
hurricane in 1975.
--
John S. Wilkins, Postdoctoral Research Fellow, Philosophy
University of Queensland - Blog: scienceblogs.com/evolvingthoughts
"He used... sarcasm. He knew all the tricks, dramatic irony, metaphor,
bathos, puns, parody, litotes and... satire. He was vicious."
|
Lincoln must have been somewhat famous. After all, they named a county
in England after him.
phillip brown |
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phillip brown Guest
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Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 5:38 am Post subject: Re: MSNBC on Lincoln and Darwin |
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On Jun 30, 1:03 pm, Bodega <michael.palm...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
On Jun 29, 6:42 pm, j.wilki...@uq.edu.au (John Wilkins) wrote:
Steven L. <sdlit...@earthlink.net> wrote:
raven1 wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 16:40:14 -0700 (PDT), "Rodjk #613"
rjka...@gmail.com> wrote:
http://www.newsweek.com/id/143742
A very interesting article, but a bit parochial in its conclusion that
Lincoln was the more significant figure: unsurprisingly, Newsweek
conflates influence on the history of the US with influence on the
world at large.
Lincoln kept the United States from splitting apart into two less
powerful countries. And for the last 100 years, no nation has had a
greater influence on the world than the United States. Thus, Lincoln's
impact on the world was enormous.
Just more indirect.
World history these last 100 years would have gone VERY differently, if
the South had successfully seceded during the Civil War. "Alternate
History" sci-fi writers have had a field day working out possible
consequences of a Southern victory; see, for example, "Bring the
Jubilee" by Ward Moore.
The 20th century was truly an *American* century for the whole world.
Lincoln helped to make that possible.
Come on. Marx was far more significant for the twentieth century than
Darwin and Lincoln combined. Or, if you like political leaders, try
Queen Victoria, Gladstone, Bismarck, Emperor Meiji, all of whom had
equal or greater downstream effects than Lincoln, who really affected
rather minimally one country - his influence in race relations didn't
flower until much later, so he's best remembered for keeping the union
together, and I think that would have been achieved even if Lincoln
hadn't been president.
Darwin's influence is greater than Lincoln's, but even he won't have his
full effect until ordinary culture assimilates the Darwinian revolution,
and that will take, I think, as long as it took for Copernicus'
revolution, around 200 years or more.
Bet you wouldn't say that if Germany and Japan had divided up the
Northern Hemisphere (and much of the Southern) between them). In fact,
I bet you wouldn't dare even make a public comment.
--
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"The Man in the High Castle" - Philip K. Dick |
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Guest
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Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 5:40 am Post subject: Re: MSNBC on Lincoln and Darwin |
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On Jun 29, 9:43 pm, j.wilki...@uq.edu.au (John Wilkins) wrote:
| Quote: |
John Harshman <jharshman.diespam...@pacbell.net> wrote:
John Wilkins wrote:
|
<snip general discussion of the significance of Lincoln's election vis
a vis other people/events>
| Quote: |
Possibly, since there would have been no secession, at least in 1860, if
he hadn't won the election. (Which is a big effect right there.) But the
south was headed either for secession or for eventual loss of their
"peculiar institution", and they weren't blind. But would federal power
have increased as much or as rapidly without Lincoln?
Hard to say. Given that the popular mood in the north was abolitionist,
which is why Lincoln was elected in the first place, it very probably
would have come up sooner or later.
|
The popular mood in the north was not abolitionist, and the chances
that Lincoln would have been elected on an abolitionist platform are,
IMO, about zero. The Republican platform was to forbid any expansion
of slavery into new territories, but not to touch it where it existed.
This was widely supported, in large part because many people did not
want any blacks in the territories, free or slave. Abolition was
especially unpopular in the the lower northwest because of fears that
it could lead to a large influx of freed slaves into those areas. The
Emancipation Proclamation was strongly opposed by many in the north
who had supported the war and the 1860 Republican platform.
I agree with you that slavery was doomed by 1860, no matter what
happened in that election (or any other) - I'd guess a timeframe of
1880 - 1900 for a "natural" end to it.
<snip> |
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raven1 Guest
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Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 6:07 am Post subject: Re: MSNBC on Lincoln and Darwin |
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On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 16:40:14 -0700 (PDT), "Rodjk #613"
<rjkardo@gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
http://www.newsweek.com/id/143742
|
A very interesting article, but a bit parochial in its conclusion that
Lincoln was the more significant figure: unsurprisingly, Newsweek
conflates influence on the history of the US with influence on the
world at large. |
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Steven L. Guest
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Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 6:25 am Post subject: Re: MSNBC on Lincoln and Darwin |
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raven1 wrote:
| Quote: |
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 16:40:14 -0700 (PDT), "Rodjk #613"
rjkardo@gmail.com> wrote:
http://www.newsweek.com/id/143742
A very interesting article, but a bit parochial in its conclusion that
Lincoln was the more significant figure: unsurprisingly, Newsweek
conflates influence on the history of the US with influence on the
world at large.
|
Lincoln kept the United States from splitting apart into two less
powerful countries. And for the last 100 years, no nation has had a
greater influence on the world than the United States. Thus, Lincoln's
impact on the world was enormous.
Just more indirect.
World history these last 100 years would have gone VERY differently, if
the South had successfully seceded during the Civil War. "Alternate
History" sci-fi writers have had a field day working out possible
consequences of a Southern victory; see, for example, "Bring the
Jubilee" by Ward Moore.
The 20th century was truly an *American* century for the whole world.
Lincoln helped to make that possible.
--
Steven L.
Email: sdlitvin@earthlinkNOSPAM.net
Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me. |
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John Wilkins Guest
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Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 6:29 am Post subject: Re: MSNBC on Lincoln and Darwin |
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raven1 <quoththeraven@nevermore.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 16:40:14 -0700 (PDT), "Rodjk #613"
rjkardo@gmail.com> wrote:
http://www.newsweek.com/id/143742
A very interesting article, but a bit parochial in its conclusion that
Lincoln was the more significant figure: unsurprisingly, Newsweek
conflates influence on the history of the US with influence on the
world at large.
|
Lincoln who? Is that the Lincoln of the medieval myth? Darwin, of course
is famous for being the namesake of the Australia city flattened by a
hurricane in 1975.
--
John S. Wilkins, Postdoctoral Research Fellow, Philosophy
University of Queensland - Blog: scienceblogs.com/evolvingthoughts
"He used... sarcasm. He knew all the tricks, dramatic irony, metaphor,
bathos, puns, parody, litotes and... satire. He was vicious." |
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John Wilkins Guest
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Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 6:42 am Post subject: Re: MSNBC on Lincoln and Darwin |
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Steven L. <sdlitvin@earthlink.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
raven1 wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 16:40:14 -0700 (PDT), "Rodjk #613"
rjkardo@gmail.com> wrote:
http://www.newsweek.com/id/143742
A very interesting article, but a bit parochial in its conclusion that
Lincoln was the more significant figure: unsurprisingly, Newsweek
conflates influence on the history of the US with influence on the
world at large.
Lincoln kept the United States from splitting apart into two less
powerful countries. And for the last 100 years, no nation has had a
greater influence on the world than the United States. Thus, Lincoln's
impact on the world was enormous.
Just more indirect.
World history these last 100 years would have gone VERY differently, if
the South had successfully seceded during the Civil War. "Alternate
History" sci-fi writers have had a field day working out possible
consequences of a Southern victory; see, for example, "Bring the
Jubilee" by Ward Moore.
The 20th century was truly an *American* century for the whole world.
Lincoln helped to make that possible.
|
Come on. Marx was far more significant for the twentieth century than
Darwin and Lincoln combined. Or, if you like political leaders, try
Queen Victoria, Gladstone, Bismarck, Emperor Meiji, all of whom had
equal or greater downstream effects than Lincoln, who really affected
rather minimally one country - his influence in race relations didn't
flower until much later, so he's best remembered for keeping the union
together, and I think that would have been achieved even if Lincoln
hadn't been president.
Darwin's influence is greater than Lincoln's, but even he won't have his
full effect until ordinary culture assimilates the Darwinian revolution,
and that will take, I think, as long as it took for Copernicus'
revolution, around 200 years or more.
--
John S. Wilkins, Postdoctoral Research Fellow, Philosophy
University of Queensland - Blog: scienceblogs.com/evolvingthoughts
"He used... sarcasm. He knew all the tricks, dramatic irony, metaphor,
bathos, puns, parody, litotes and... satire. He was vicious." |
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John Harshman Guest
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Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 8:08 am Post subject: Re: MSNBC on Lincoln and Darwin |
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John Wilkins wrote:
| Quote: |
Steven L. <sdlitvin@earthlink.net> wrote:
raven1 wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 16:40:14 -0700 (PDT), "Rodjk #613"
rjkardo@gmail.com> wrote:
http://www.newsweek.com/id/143742
A very interesting article, but a bit parochial in its conclusion that
Lincoln was the more significant figure: unsurprisingly, Newsweek
conflates influence on the history of the US with influence on the
world at large.
Lincoln kept the United States from splitting apart into two less
powerful countries. And for the last 100 years, no nation has had a
greater influence on the world than the United States. Thus, Lincoln's
impact on the world was enormous.
Just more indirect.
World history these last 100 years would have gone VERY differently, if
the South had successfully seceded during the Civil War. "Alternate
History" sci-fi writers have had a field day working out possible
consequences of a Southern victory; see, for example, "Bring the
Jubilee" by Ward Moore.
The 20th century was truly an *American* century for the whole world.
Lincoln helped to make that possible.
Come on. Marx was far more significant for the twentieth century than
Darwin and Lincoln combined.
|
All these questions are silly, because history is much more complex than
we can work out. But that doesn't stop me from playing. I think John has
made a good case that Marx was not more important. U.S. importance has
outlasted Marx's importance by quite a bit, so far.
| Quote: |
Or, if you like political leaders, try
Queen Victoria,
|
What, you mean her hemophilia gene crucially weakened the Russian
monarchy at a critical point? She was hardly a political leader; Prince
Albert was more of a leader, and he didn't do much.
| Quote: |
Gladstone, Bismarck, Emperor Meiji,
|
Bismarck, conceivably. You will have to explain what Gladstone and Meiji
did that was so important. The Meiji Restoration was certainly
important, though not as important at the maintenance of the Union. But
it happens without Meiji, as long as there's an emperor willing to go along.
| Quote: |
all of whom had
equal or greater downstream effects than Lincoln, who really affected
rather minimally one country - his influence in race relations didn't
flower until much later, so he's best remembered for keeping the union
together, and I think that would have been achieved even if Lincoln
hadn't been president.
|
Possibly, since there would have been no secession, at least in 1860, if
he hadn't won the election. (Which is a big effect right there.) But the
south was headed either for secession or for eventual loss of their
"peculiar institution", and they weren't blind. But would federal power
have increased as much or as rapidly without Lincoln?
| Quote: |
Darwin's influence is greater than Lincoln's, but even he won't have his
full effect until ordinary culture assimilates the Darwinian revolution,
and that will take, I think, as long as it took for Copernicus'
revolution, around 200 years or more.
|
I'm not sure even that is true. Without Darwin, evolutionary biology
starts fairly soon, even if nobody notices Wallace. And evolutionary
biology's major effect on real life would seem to be its stimulus to
molecular biology. |
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phillip brown Guest
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Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 8:38 am Post subject: Re: MSNBC on Lincoln and Darwin |
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On Jun 30, 3:47 pm, "Mike Dworetsky"
<platinum...@pants.btinternet.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
"phillip brown" <pjbr...@people.net.au> wrote in message
news:5b44feda-45cf-4710-99b0-bf5a1c01edb4@p39g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 30, 11:29 am, j.wilki...@uq.edu.au (John Wilkins) wrote:
raven1 <quoththera...@nevermore.com> wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 16:40:14 -0700 (PDT), "Rodjk #613"
rjka...@gmail.com> wrote:
http://www.newsweek.com/id/143742
A very interesting article, but a bit parochial in its conclusion that
Lincoln was the more significant figure: unsurprisingly, Newsweek
conflates influence on the history of the US with influence on the
world at large.
Lincoln who? Is that the Lincoln of the medieval myth? Darwin, of course
is famous for being the namesake of the Australia city flattened by a
hurricane in 1975.
--
John S. Wilkins, Postdoctoral Research Fellow, Philosophy
University of Queensland - Blog: scienceblogs.com/evolvingthoughts
"He used... sarcasm. He knew all the tricks, dramatic irony, metaphor,
bathos, puns, parody, litotes and... satire. He was vicious."
Lincoln must have been somewhat famous. After all, they named a county
in England after him.
phillip brown
s/county/city/
--
Mike Dworetsky
(Remove pants sp*mbl*ck to reply)
|
Lincolnshire?
phillip brown |
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John Wilkins Guest
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Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:43 am Post subject: Re: MSNBC on Lincoln and Darwin |
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John Harshman <jharshman.diespamdie@pacbell.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
John Wilkins wrote:
Steven L. <sdlitvin@earthlink.net> wrote:
raven1 wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 16:40:14 -0700 (PDT), "Rodjk #613"
rjkardo@gmail.com> wrote:
http://www.newsweek.com/id/143742
A very interesting article, but a bit parochial in its conclusion that
Lincoln was the more significant figure: unsurprisingly, Newsweek
conflates influence on the history of the US with influence on the
world at large.
Lincoln kept the United States from splitting apart into two less
powerful countries. And for the last 100 years, no nation has had a
greater influence on the world than the United States. Thus, Lincoln's
impact on the world was enormous.
Just more indirect.
World history these last 100 years would have gone VERY differently, if
the South had successfully seceded during the Civil War. "Alternate
History" sci-fi writers have had a field day working out possible
consequences of a Southern victory; see, for example, "Bring the
Jubilee" by Ward Moore.
The 20th century was truly an *American* century for the whole world.
Lincoln helped to make that possible.
Come on. Marx was far more significant for the twentieth century than
Darwin and Lincoln combined.
All these questions are silly, because history is much more complex than
we can work out. But that doesn't stop me from playing.
|
It's a fun game, not unlike Calvinball...
| Quote: |
I think John has
made a good case that Marx was not more important. U.S. importance has
outlasted Marx's importance by quite a bit, so far.
|
You think? People in China, Russia, Nepal, Vietnam, Peru, Angola, and a
slew of other nations might beg to differ. Part of the problem here is
measuring "importance". Had America not existed, or become some kind of
social democrat state like the rest of the Europeans did eventually,
some other state would have opposed the Marxist states (probably Germany
alone or in conjunction with Britain). But Marx's influence would,
individually, remain way more important than Lincoln's.
| Quote: |
Or, if you like political leaders, try
Queen Victoria,
What, you mean her hemophilia gene crucially weakened the Russian
monarchy at a critical point? She was hardly a political leader; Prince
Albert was more of a leader, and he didn't do much.
|
She didn't as an executive agent, sure, but her role in influencing the
greatest empire of all time was perhaps more significant than anything
Lincoln did. As a result the path of central Asia, Africa, the Pacific,
east Asia and an island off the south coast of Papua New Guinea were
changed immensely. Had she not been monarch (say, that silly Edward VII
had) the effect would not, I am convinced, been nearly as great.
| Quote: |
Gladstone, Bismarck, Emperor Meiji,
Bismarck, conceivably. You will have to explain what Gladstone and Meiji
did that was so important. The Meiji Restoration was certainly
important, though not as important at the maintenance of the Union. But
it happens without Meiji, as long as there's an emperor willing to go along.
|
Meiji was, I understood, a moderniser (unlike prior emperors and
shoguns). As a result Japan was able to industrialise and modernise its
armed forces and thus start the expansionist policies that led to the
Pacific war.
Glastone was able to modernise the British armed forces, thus making it
able to expand its influence, and also later on to resist Germany. He
also disengaged from African expansionism, particularly the Mahdi Army
conflict. He also began the institution of regional parliament in the
Reprublic as it is now of Ireland, leading to conditions that made
independence possible.
| Quote: |
all of whom had
equal or greater downstream effects than Lincoln, who really affected
rather minimally one country - his influence in race relations didn't
flower until much later, so he's best remembered for keeping the union
together, and I think that would have been achieved even if Lincoln
hadn't been president.
Possibly, since there would have been no secession, at least in 1860, if
he hadn't won the election. (Which is a big effect right there.) But the
south was headed either for secession or for eventual loss of their
"peculiar institution", and they weren't blind. But would federal power
have increased as much or as rapidly without Lincoln?
|
Hard to say. Given that the popular mood in the north was abolitionist,
which is why Lincoln was elected in the first place, it very probably
would have come up sooner or later.
| Quote: |
Darwin's influence is greater than Lincoln's, but even he won't have his
full effect until ordinary culture assimilates the Darwinian revolution,
and that will take, I think, as long as it took for Copernicus'
revolution, around 200 years or more.
I'm not sure even that is true. Without Darwin, evolutionary biology
starts fairly soon, even if nobody notices Wallace. And evolutionary
biology's major effect on real life would seem to be its stimulus to
molecular biology.
|
Well there is also the very large impact it has had on non-scientific
thought. Darwin inspired many thinkers, including Peirce, Dewey, James,
Royce, Nietzsche, Whitehead, Freud, Jung, economists of the right,
economists of the left, Boltzmann, and so on. So it's rather
disingenuous to say that he had little effect on real life.
Moreover, I think that many elements of modern evolutionary biology
would have been much later without Darwin, especially the development of
comparative psychology of emotions and cognition. So Mach, Lorenz,
Piaget, Tinbergen, and so on are all later developments.
--
John S. Wilkins, Postdoctoral Research Fellow, Philosophy
University of Queensland - Blog: scienceblogs.com/evolvingthoughts
"He used... sarcasm. He knew all the tricks, dramatic irony, metaphor,
bathos, puns, parody, litotes and... satire. He was vicious." |
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Free Lunch Guest
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Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:07 am Post subject: Re: MSNBC on Lincoln and Darwin |
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On Mon, 30 Jun 2008 14:43:40 +1000, j.wilkins1@uq.edu.au (John Wilkins)
wrote in talk.origins:
| Quote: |
John Harshman <jharshman.diespamdie@pacbell.net> wrote:
John Wilkins wrote:
Steven L. <sdlitvin@earthlink.net> wrote:
raven1 wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 16:40:14 -0700 (PDT), "Rodjk #613"
rjkardo@gmail.com> wrote:
http://www.newsweek.com/id/143742
A very interesting article, but a bit parochial in its conclusion that
Lincoln was the more significant figure: unsurprisingly, Newsweek
conflates influence on the history of the US with influence on the
world at large.
Lincoln kept the United States from splitting apart into two less
powerful countries. And for the last 100 years, no nation has had a
greater influence on the world than the United States. Thus, Lincoln's
impact on the world was enormous.
Just more indirect.
World history these last 100 years would have gone VERY differently, if
the South had successfully seceded during the Civil War. "Alternate
History" sci-fi writers have had a field day working out possible
consequences of a Southern victory; see, for example, "Bring the
Jubilee" by Ward Moore.
The 20th century was truly an *American* century for the whole world.
Lincoln helped to make that possible.
Come on. Marx was far more significant for the twentieth century than
Darwin and Lincoln combined.
All these questions are silly, because history is much more complex than
we can work out. But that doesn't stop me from playing.
It's a fun game, not unlike Calvinball...
I think John has
made a good case that Marx was not more important. U.S. importance has
outlasted Marx's importance by quite a bit, so far.
You think? People in China, Russia, Nepal, Vietnam, Peru, Angola, and a
slew of other nations might beg to differ. Part of the problem here is
measuring "importance". Had America not existed, or become some kind of
social democrat state like the rest of the Europeans did eventually,
some other state would have opposed the Marxist states (probably Germany
alone or in conjunction with Britain). But Marx's influence would,
individually, remain way more important than Lincoln's.
Or, if you like political leaders, try
Queen Victoria,
What, you mean her hemophilia gene crucially weakened the Russian
monarchy at a critical point? She was hardly a political leader; Prince
Albert was more of a leader, and he didn't do much.
She didn't as an executive agent, sure, but her role in influencing the
greatest empire of all time was perhaps more significant than anything
Lincoln did. As a result the path of central Asia, Africa, the Pacific,
east Asia and an island off the south coast of Papua New Guinea were
changed immensely. Had she not been monarch (say, that silly Edward VII
had) the effect would not, I am convinced, been nearly as great.
Gladstone, Bismarck, Emperor Meiji,
Bismarck, conceivably. You will have to explain what Gladstone and Meiji
did that was so important. The Meiji Restoration was certainly
important, though not as important at the maintenance of the Union. But
it happens without Meiji, as long as there's an emperor willing to go along.
Meiji was, I understood, a moderniser (unlike prior emperors and
shoguns). As a result Japan was able to industrialise and modernise its
armed forces and thus start the expansionist policies that led to the
Pacific war.
Glastone was able to modernise the British armed forces, thus making it
able to expand its influence, and also later on to resist Germany. He
also disengaged from African expansionism, particularly the Mahdi Army
conflict. He also began the institution of regional parliament in the
Reprublic as it is now of Ireland, leading to conditions that made
independence possible.
all of whom had
equal or greater downstream effects than Lincoln, who really affected
rather minimally one country - his influence in race relations didn't
flower until much later, so he's best remembered for keeping the union
together, and I think that would have been achieved even if Lincoln
hadn't been president.
Possibly, since there would have been no secession, at least in 1860, if
he hadn't won the election. (Which is a big effect right there.) But the
south was headed either for secession or for eventual loss of their
"peculiar institution", and they weren't blind. But would federal power
have increased as much or as rapidly without Lincoln?
Hard to say. Given that the popular mood in the north was abolitionist,
which is why Lincoln was elected in the first place, it very probably
would have come up sooner or later.
|
Without the secession and the war, there was no way to force the South
to abandon slavery and there would have been no reason to create the
powerful central government that we now have. Before 1865, the US
government wasn't much more powerful than the EU's.
| Quote: |
Darwin's influence is greater than Lincoln's, but even he won't have his
full effect until ordinary culture assimilates the Darwinian revolution,
and that will take, I think, as long as it took for Copernicus'
revolution, around 200 years or more.
I'm not sure even that is true. Without Darwin, evolutionary biology
starts fairly soon, even if nobody notices Wallace. And evolutionary
biology's major effect on real life would seem to be its stimulus to
molecular biology.
Well there is also the very large impact it has had on non-scientific
thought. Darwin inspired many thinkers, including Peirce, Dewey, James,
Royce, Nietzsche, Whitehead, Freud, Jung, economists of the right,
economists of the left, Boltzmann, and so on. So it's rather
disingenuous to say that he had little effect on real life.
|
And more people claimed to be 'helping' nature by pushing it along. The
eugenics movement was popular among very many educated folks in the
West, well into the Twenties.
| Quote: |
Moreover, I think that many elements of modern evolutionary biology
would have been much later without Darwin, especially the development of
comparative psychology of emotions and cognition. So Mach, Lorenz,
Piaget, Tinbergen, and so on are all later developments.
|
The problem with psychology is that Freud was so towering in the field
to begin with -- and he made so many mistakes. I think that psychology
was a field that was strongly misled in the beginning by
misunderstanding what Darwin had observed. |
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John Wilkins Guest
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Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:38 am Post subject: Re: MSNBC on Lincoln and Darwin |
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|
Free Lunch <lunch@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
| Quote: |
Moreover, I think that many elements of modern evolutionary biology
would have been much later without Darwin, especially the development of
comparative psychology of emotions and cognition. So Mach, Lorenz,
Piaget, Tinbergen, and so on are all later developments.
The problem with psychology is that Freud was so towering in the field
to begin with -- and he made so many mistakes. I think that psychology
was a field that was strongly misled in the beginning by
misunderstanding what Darwin had observed.
|
Well in fact Darwin was more directly influential on the
phenomenological psychology of James than on Freud, who was directly
influenced more by the neo-Lamarckian evolutionary theory of the 1880s.
--
John S. Wilkins, Postdoctoral Research Fellow, Philosophy
University of Queensland - Blog: scienceblogs.com/evolvingthoughts
"He used... sarcasm. He knew all the tricks, dramatic irony, metaphor,
bathos, puns, parody, litotes and... satire. He was vicious." |
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Mike Dworetsky Guest
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Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:47 am Post subject: Re: MSNBC on Lincoln and Darwin |
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"phillip brown" <pjbrown@people.net.au> wrote in message
news:5b44feda-45cf-4710-99b0-bf5a1c01edb4@p39g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: |
On Jun 30, 11:29 am, j.wilki...@uq.edu.au (John Wilkins) wrote:
raven1 <quoththera...@nevermore.com> wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 16:40:14 -0700 (PDT), "Rodjk #613"
rjka...@gmail.com> wrote:
http://www.newsweek.com/id/143742
A very interesting article, but a bit parochial in its conclusion that
Lincoln was the more significant figure: unsurprisingly, Newsweek
conflates influence on the history of the US with influence on the
world at large.
Lincoln who? Is that the Lincoln of the medieval myth? Darwin, of course
is famous for being the namesake of the Australia city flattened by a
hurricane in 1975.
--
John S. Wilkins, Postdoctoral Research Fellow, Philosophy
University of Queensland - Blog: scienceblogs.com/evolvingthoughts
"He used... sarcasm. He knew all the tricks, dramatic irony, metaphor,
bathos, puns, parody, litotes and... satire. He was vicious."
Lincoln must have been somewhat famous. After all, they named a county
in England after him.
phillip brown
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s/county/city/
--
Mike Dworetsky
(Remove pants sp*mbl*ck to reply) |
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