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PeterBP
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 Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 6:19 am Post subject: Re: The great tax clawback scam - how government milks the p |
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radav <radav@webtv.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
On Jul 2, 12:38 pm, no...@jose.com (PeterBP) wrote:
Dan in Philly <d...@aol.com> wrote:
"PeterBP" <no...@jose.com> wrote in message ...
The Fed doesn't care about land prices. It only cares about inflation
(goods
and services, not assets) and unemployment.
Not quite - it has interest in Seignorage - that is, the profit from
minting money.
Technically, the government gets the seignorage. Ben Bernanke gets paid a
straight salary.
Still, government allows the Fed to operate, and if they collect the
profits from its operation, then they are the beneficiaries, yes?
Then there's the debate of whether the Fed and Gov't should be seen as
distint and seperate entities. The above is an implication it should
not.
--
regards , Peter B. P. -http://titancity.com/blog/
"Don't go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes
you nothing. It was here first." - Mark Twain
The Fed is not a gov't agency.
|
Nominally, that is correct.
| Quote: |
Congress puts on a "show" of control
over the Fed. But this is mere window dressing since outside a few
voices crying in the wilderness to abolish the Fed., this nefarious
institution has continued for decades as monetary monopolists.
|
Again, government allows it to exist. It is an institution which has a
power that has traditionally been government-only.
| Quote: |
Wall St., the bankers & brokers are the major clients of the Fed. If
the general interest happens to coincide with Fed policy- well & good-
but this is of secondary importance to the money manipulators.
|
The question would then be if the Fed is part of the government, or
government is part of the Fed... ?
--
- Peter *** http://titancity.com/blog/
"Don't go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes
you nothing. It was here first." - Mark Twain |
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The Trucker
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| Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 6:27 am Post subject: Re: The great tax clawback scam - how government milks the p |
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On Thu, 03 Jul 2008 13:41:19 +0000, Dan in Philly wrote:
| Quote: |
"The Trucker" <mikcob@verizon.net> wrote in message ...
So what? If I buy a stolen car then it's OK because I paid money for it?
The new "owner" is simply the new thief.
If the previous owner paid for it, then it wasn't stolen.
|
He became the new thief before you.
--
"I know no safe depository of the ultimate powers
of society but the people themselves; and
if we think them not enlightened enough to
exercise their control with a wholesome
discretion, the remedy is not to take it from
them, but to inform their discretion by
education." - Thomas Jefferson
http://GreaterVoice.org/extend |
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The Trucker
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 8:30 am Post subject: Re: The great tax clawback scam - how government milks the p |
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On Fri, 04 Jul 2008 03:16:49 +0200, PeterBP wrote:
| Quote: |
Then there is the question of how hard it strikes those who it strikes.
Would you make 99% of your nation's populace happy if it required that
the remaining 1% get killed or enslaved for life under brutal
conditions?
|
This is a discussion (believe it or not) about rule based utilitarianism
which then morphs into utilitarian calculus. In rule based utilitarianism
you cannot proceed along a self fulfilling path that harms someone else.
However, the definition of harm is __**NOT**__ an individual decision.
Like you cannot claim that as a result of a tax to support the poor you
only have 1 billion 100 thousand dollars as opposed to having 1 billion
200 thousand dollars.
--
"I know no safe depository of the ultimate powers
of society but the people themselves; and
if we think them not enlightened enough to
exercise their control with a wholesome
discretion, the remedy is not to take it from
them, but to inform their discretion by
education." - Thomas Jefferson
http://GreaterVoice.org/extend |
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PeterBP
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| Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 6:24 am Post subject: Re: The great tax clawback scam - how government milks the p |
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Werner <whetzner@mac.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
On Jul 2, 2:00 pm, The Trucker <mik...@verizon.net> wrote:
On Wed, 02 Jul 2008 08:02:30 -0700, Werner wrote:
On Jul 2, 12:50 am, The Trucker <mik...@verizon.net> wrote:
On Tue, 01 Jul 2008 21:38:24 -0700, Werner wrote:
On Jul 1, 8:14 pm, "Mark M." <m...@ztech.com> wrote:
....
Government should be as strong as necessary to oppose the
forces who would seek private gain at the expense of the
common good. Simply making government weak in itself does
not guarantee good results.
Whose common good?
http://www.capitaldistrict-lp.org/Myth.shtml
I know I shouldn't try to argue with a queue ball, but I'm bored. It seem
s
to me that you believe that your version of the common good is better tha
n
the rest of us. It is a religious position as all "good" ultimately must
be; an opinion. Your version of the "common good" is a lack of any form
of common good. That is like some folks want a total lack of religion or
they believe that their particular religion is the very definition of goo
d.
Only a complete and utter moron can believe that there is no "common
good". Such a moron is saying that the lack of "common good" is in the
common good.
--
Enlighten me. What is The Common Good?
Whatever __**WE**__ say it is.
--
Enlighten me. Who is WE?
|
Typically 50,1% of government "representatives".
Of course, he is just dragging out the pain. He knows the problem very
well. Denial is one of the last stages before acceptance.
--
- Peter *** http://titancity.com/blog/
"Don't go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes
you nothing. It was here first." - Mark Twain |
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PeterBP
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| Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 6:27 am Post subject: Re: The great tax clawback scam - how government milks the p |
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Werner <whetzner@mac.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
On Jul 2, 2:00 pm, The Trucker <mik...@verizon.net> wrote:
On Wed, 02 Jul 2008 08:02:30 -0700, Werner wrote:
On Jul 2, 12:50 am, The Trucker <mik...@verizon.net> wrote:
On Tue, 01 Jul 2008 21:38:24 -0700, Werner wrote:
On Jul 1, 8:14 pm, "Mark M." <m...@ztech.com> wrote:
....
Government should be as strong as necessary to oppose the
forces who would seek private gain at the expense of the
common good. Simply making government weak in itself does
not guarantee good results.
Whose common good?
http://www.capitaldistrict-lp.org/Myth.shtml
I know I shouldn't try to argue with a queue ball, but I'm bored. It seem
s
to me that you believe that your version of the common good is better tha
n
the rest of us. It is a religious position as all "good" ultimately must
be; an opinion. Your version of the "common good" is a lack of any form
of common good. That is like some folks want a total lack of religion or
they believe that their particular religion is the very definition of goo
d.
Only a complete and utter moron can believe that there is no "common
good". Such a moron is saying that the lack of "common good" is in the
common good.
--
Enlighten me. What is The Common Good?
Whatever __**WE**__ say it is.
--
Enlighten me. Who is WE?
|
PS: the post you are replying to has distinct totalitarian overtones. I
find it particularly disturbing when it comes from one who a few months
ago professed to be on the side of truth and justice.
--
- Peter *** http://titancity.com/blog/
"Don't go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes
you nothing. It was here first." - Mark Twain |
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The Trucker
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 12:26 am Post subject: Re: The great tax clawback scam - how government milks the p |
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On Sun, 06 Jul 2008 03:24:31 +0200, PeterBP wrote:
| Quote: |
Werner <whetzner@mac.com> wrote:
On Jul 2, 2:00 pm, The Trucker <mik...@verizon.net> wrote:
On Wed, 02 Jul 2008 08:02:30 -0700, Werner wrote:
On Jul 2, 12:50 am, The Trucker <mik...@verizon.net> wrote:
On Tue, 01 Jul 2008 21:38:24 -0700, Werner wrote:
On Jul 1, 8:14 pm, "Mark M." <m...@ztech.com> wrote:
....
Government should be as strong as necessary to oppose the
forces who would seek private gain at the expense of the
common good. Simply making government weak in itself does
not guarantee good results.
Whose common good?
http://www.capitaldistrict-lp.org/Myth.shtml
I know I shouldn't try to argue with a queue ball, but I'm bored. It seem
s
to me that you believe that your version of the common good is better tha
n
the rest of us. It is a religious position as all "good" ultimately must
be; an opinion. Your version of the "common good" is a lack of any form
of common good. That is like some folks want a total lack of religion or
they believe that their particular religion is the very definition of goo
d.
Only a complete and utter moron can believe that there is no "common
good". Such a moron is saying that the lack of "common good" is in the
common good.
--
Enlighten me. What is The Common Good?
Whatever __**WE**__ say it is.
--
Enlighten me. Who is WE?
Typically 50,1% of government "representatives".
|
Actually that is not supposed to be true in a Constitutional democracy and
it certainly is not true in the United States. Many things cannot be
done by simple majority. Many things that might be wanted by the majority
will take 60% majorities of the elected government, and others will take
3/4's of the elected representatives. Still others would take 3/4's
of the elected representatives and 3/4's of the state legislatures or the
people of the various states.
| Quote: |
Of course, he is just dragging out the pain. He knows the problem very
well. Denial is one of the last stages before acceptance.
|
I am certainly not denying anything. No matter what we do righteousness
is decided by the living people within a social universe. That is what
the common "good" _IS_.
--
"I know no safe depository of the ultimate powers
of society but the people themselves; and
if we think them not enlightened enough to
exercise their control with a wholesome
discretion, the remedy is not to take it from
them, but to inform their discretion by
education." - Thomas Jefferson
http://GreaterVoice.org/extend |
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Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 3:09 am Post subject: Re: The great tax clawback scam - how government milks the p |
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On Wed, 02 Jul 2008 01:42:46 GMT, "Dan in Philly" <djr8@aol.com>
wrote:
| Quote: |
"PeterBP" <noway@jose.com> wrote in message ...
but the root cause remains privilege in owning land
I don't see any 'privilege' in owning land anymore; I'm pretty sure it gets
the standard rate of return.
|
So would licenses to steal. That doesn't make them any less
privileges.
| Quote: |
The real rent-collectors were the ones who originally got the land at less
than the present discounted value of future rents. I suspect few of them (or
their heirs) still own that land.
|
You suspect wrong. Land is almost always undervalued, because there
is not enough purchasing power in existence to value it accurately.
-- Roy L |
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Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 3:13 am Post subject: Re: The great tax clawback scam - how government milks the p |
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On Wed, 02 Jul 2008 11:49:45 GMT, "Dan in Philly" <djr8@aol.com>
wrote:
| Quote: |
"The Trucker" <mikcob@verizon.net> wrote in message ...
I don't see any 'privilege' in owning land anymore; I'm pretty sure it
gets the standard rate of return.
Why should it get any return at all?
Because the new owner paid money for it.
|
So, if someone pays money for a license to steal, he should be allowed
to steal? When a bank robber buys a gun, he should get a return on
his investment?
I find it amazing that people imagine paying money for something
confers a right to get a return on it.
Give your head a shake.
-- Roy L |
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Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 3:16 am Post subject: Re: The great tax clawback scam - how government milks the p |
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On Thu, 03 Jul 2008 13:41:19 GMT, "Dan in Philly" <djr8@aol.com>
wrote:
| Quote: |
"The Trucker" <mikcob@verizon.net> wrote in message ...
So what? If I buy a stolen car then it's OK because I paid money for it?
The new "owner" is simply the new thief.
If the previous owner paid for it, then it wasn't stolen.
|
Of course, that is just baldly false. It is only legitimate ORIGINAL
ownership -- i.e., the producer's right to his product -- that can
make an asset not stolen. A thief's sale of an asset does not allow
the next owner to create a valid title by selling it on again. Hello?
-- Roy L |
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PeterBP
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 3:29 am Post subject: Re: The great tax clawback scam - how government milks the p |
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|
<royls@telus.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
On Thu, 03 Jul 2008 13:41:19 GMT, "Dan in Philly" <djr8@aol.com
wrote:
"The Trucker" <mikcob@verizon.net> wrote in message ...
So what? If I buy a stolen car then it's OK because I paid money for it?
The new "owner" is simply the new thief.
If the previous owner paid for it, then it wasn't stolen.
Of course, that is just baldly false. It is only legitimate ORIGINAL
ownership -- i.e., the producer's right to his product -- that can
make an asset not stolen. A thief's sale of an asset does not allow
the next owner to create a valid title by selling it on again. Hello?
-- Roy L
|
Of course the last appropriator in the chain of exchanges can make the
exchange legitimately and in good faith, but that is beyond the point.
--
- Peter *** http://titancity.com/blog/
"Don't go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes
you nothing. It was here first." - Mark Twain |
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PeterBP
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 3:29 am Post subject: Re: The great tax clawback scam - how government milks the p |
|
|
<royls@telus.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
On Wed, 02 Jul 2008 01:42:46 GMT, "Dan in Philly" <djr8@aol.com
wrote:
"PeterBP" <noway@jose.com> wrote in message ...
but the root cause remains privilege in owning land
I don't see any 'privilege' in owning land anymore; I'm pretty sure it gets
the standard rate of return.
So would licenses to steal. That doesn't make them any less
privileges.
The real rent-collectors were the ones who originally got the land at less
than the present discounted value of future rents. I suspect few of them (or
their heirs) still own that land.
You suspect wrong. Land is almost always undervalued, because there
is not enough purchasing power in existence to value it accurately.
-- Roy L
|
A somewhat accurate description.
Assume that a plot of land on planet Earth is sold for value X. Further
assume that that the land stays in use towards time infinity, as does
the surrounding land. Even if we assume that population stays constant
(which is wildly conservative judging from the population growth over
the last centuries), and assuming that an extreme drop in the utility of
land will not occur (unlikely, even with commercial space travel), the
result will be that the economic potential of the plot of land in
question approaches infinity, only barred by the eventual blossoming of
the Sun from Yellow main series star to Red supergiant.
Example: A 20x20 m plot of land in Manhattan, over a period of 50 years,
factoring in a global population that will likely reach 11 billion or
more (twice that of today), with explosive capital accumulation due to
continued growth and tecnological innovation, including the implicit
fact that production of more land is essentially impossible.
--
- Peter *** http://titancity.com/blog/
"Don't go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes
you nothing. It was here first." - Mark Twain |
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Les Cargill
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 4:20 am Post subject: Re: The great tax clawback scam - how government milks the p |
|
|
PeterBP wrote:
| Quote: |
royls@telus.net> wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jul 2008 13:41:19 GMT, "Dan in Philly" <djr8@aol.com
wrote:
"The Trucker" <mikcob@verizon.net> wrote in message ...
So what? If I buy a stolen car then it's OK because I paid money for it?
The new "owner" is simply the new thief.
If the previous owner paid for it, then it wasn't stolen.
Of course, that is just baldly false. It is only legitimate ORIGINAL
ownership -- i.e., the producer's right to his product -- that can
make an asset not stolen. A thief's sale of an asset does not allow
the next owner to create a valid title by selling it on again. Hello?
-- Roy L
Of course the last appropriator in the chain of exchanges can make the
exchange legitimately and in good faith, but that is beyond the point.
|
No, it's really not. The present owner's claim is *purely legally
legitimate*, and anybody who says anything to the contrary is advocating
an action which cannot be reached legally or peacefully.
--
Les Cargill |
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PeterBP
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 4:30 am Post subject: Re: The great tax clawback scam - how government milks the p |
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|
Les Cargill <lcargill@cfl.rr.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
PeterBP wrote:
royls@telus.net> wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jul 2008 13:41:19 GMT, "Dan in Philly" <djr8@aol.com
wrote:
"The Trucker" <mikcob@verizon.net> wrote in message ...
So what? If I buy a stolen car then it's OK because I paid money for it?
The new "owner" is simply the new thief.
If the previous owner paid for it, then it wasn't stolen.
Of course, that is just baldly false. It is only legitimate ORIGINAL
ownership -- i.e., the producer's right to his product -- that can
make an asset not stolen. A thief's sale of an asset does not allow
the next owner to create a valid title by selling it on again. Hello?
-- Roy L
Of course the last appropriator in the chain of exchanges can make the
exchange legitimately and in good faith, but that is beyond the point.
No, it's really not. The present owner's claim is *purely legally
legitimate*, and anybody who says anything to the contrary is advocating
an action which cannot be reached legally or peacefully.
--
Les Cargill
|
What if the unjust acquisition is merely 1+1 step away from the current
owner, then?
--
- Peter *** http://titancity.com/blog/
"Don't go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes
you nothing. It was here first." - Mark Twain |
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The Trucker
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:02 am Post subject: Re: The great tax clawback scam - how government milks the p |
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|
On Sun, 06 Jul 2008 19:20:15 -0400, Les Cargill wrote:
| Quote: |
PeterBP wrote:
royls@telus.net> wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jul 2008 13:41:19 GMT, "Dan in Philly" <djr8@aol.com
wrote:
"The Trucker" <mikcob@verizon.net> wrote in message ...
So what? If I buy a stolen car then it's OK because I paid money for it?
The new "owner" is simply the new thief.
If the previous owner paid for it, then it wasn't stolen.
Of course, that is just baldly false. It is only legitimate ORIGINAL
ownership -- i.e., the producer's right to his product -- that can
make an asset not stolen. A thief's sale of an asset does not allow
the next owner to create a valid title by selling it on again. Hello?
-- Roy L
Of course the last appropriator in the chain of exchanges can make the
exchange legitimately and in good faith, but that is beyond the point.
No, it's really not. The present owner's claim is *purely legally
legitimate*, and anybody who says anything to the contrary is advocating
an action which cannot be reached legally or peacefully.
|
BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZTTTTTTTTTTTTT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! In this
country the people are supposed to be sovereign. If they decide to raise
land taxes to 75% of market value per annum then they will do it. It will
be perfectly legal and it could be done quite peacefully. Legality is the
opinion of the vast universal majority. What universe do you live in?
--
"I know no safe depository of the ultimate powers
of society but the people themselves; and
if we think them not enlightened enough to
exercise their control with a wholesome
discretion, the remedy is not to take it from
them, but to inform their discretion by
education." - Thomas Jefferson
http://GreaterVoice.org/extend |
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Les Cargill
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 6:45 pm Post subject: Re: The great tax clawback scam - how government milks the p |
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|
The Trucker wrote:
| Quote: |
On Sun, 06 Jul 2008 19:20:15 -0400, Les Cargill wrote:
PeterBP wrote:
royls@telus.net> wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jul 2008 13:41:19 GMT, "Dan in Philly" <djr8@aol.com
wrote:
"The Trucker" <mikcob@verizon.net> wrote in message ...
So what? If I buy a stolen car then it's OK because I paid money for it?
The new "owner" is simply the new thief.
If the previous owner paid for it, then it wasn't stolen.
Of course, that is just baldly false. It is only legitimate ORIGINAL
ownership -- i.e., the producer's right to his product -- that can
make an asset not stolen. A thief's sale of an asset does not allow
the next owner to create a valid title by selling it on again. Hello?
-- Roy L
Of course the last appropriator in the chain of exchanges can make the
exchange legitimately and in good faith, but that is beyond the point.
No, it's really not. The present owner's claim is *purely legally
legitimate*, and anybody who says anything to the contrary is advocating
an action which cannot be reached legally or peacefully.
BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZTTTTTTTTTTTTT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! In this
country the people are supposed to be sovereign.
|
No, they are not. Not in the sense you mean it here. The people have
the franchise, but the law is the mechanism by which such decisions are
made. The people have an input into what makes law, but law that
violates existing case law will be filtered out.
| Quote: |
If they decide to raise
land taxes to 75% of market value per annum then they will do it.
|
And it'd be fine with me. Just how realistic is that? Why, it's not
realistic at all.
| Quote: |
It will
be perfectly legal and it could be done quite peacefully. Legality is the
opinion of the vast universal majority.
|
Holy cow, not. Way not. Totally not. And here comes the guillotine....
| Quote: |
What universe do you live in?
|
The real one.
--
Les Cargill |
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