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The Trucker
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 Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 9:54 pm Post subject: Re: The great tax clawback scam - how government milks the p |
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On Wed, 02 Jul 2008 11:49:45 +0000, Dan in Philly wrote:
| Quote: |
"The Trucker" <mikcob@verizon.net> wrote in message ...
I don't see any 'privilege' in owning land anymore; I'm pretty sure it
gets
the standard rate of return.
Why should it get any return at all?
Because the new owner paid money for it.
|
So what? If I buy a stolen car then it's OK because I paid money for it?
The new "owner" is simply the new thief.
--
"I know no safe depository of the ultimate powers
of society but the people themselves; and
if we think them not enlightened enough to
exercise their control with a wholesome
discretion, the remedy is not to take it from
them, but to inform their discretion by
education." - Thomas Jefferson
http://GreaterVoice.org/extend |
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The Trucker
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 11:00 pm Post subject: Re: The great tax clawback scam - how government milks the p |
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On Wed, 02 Jul 2008 08:02:30 -0700, Werner wrote:
| Quote: |
On Jul 2, 12:50 am, The Trucker <mik...@verizon.net> wrote:
On Tue, 01 Jul 2008 21:38:24 -0700, Werner wrote:
On Jul 1, 8:14 pm, "Mark M." <m...@ztech.com> wrote:
....
Government should be as strong as necessary to oppose the
forces who would seek private gain at the expense of the
common good. Simply making government weak in itself does
not guarantee good results.
Whose common good?
http://www.capitaldistrict-lp.org/Myth.shtml
I know I shouldn't try to argue with a queue ball, but I'm bored. It seems
to me that you believe that your version of the common good is better than
the rest of us. It is a religious position as all "good" ultimately must
be; an opinion. Your version of the "common good" is a lack of any form
of common good. That is like some folks want a total lack of religion or
they believe that their particular religion is the very definition of good.
Only a complete and utter moron can believe that there is no "common
good". Such a moron is saying that the lack of "common good" is in the
common good.
--
Enlighten me. What is The Common Good?
|
Whatever __**WE**__ say it is.
--
"I know no safe depository of the ultimate powers
of society but the people themselves; and
if we think them not enlightened enough to
exercise their control with a wholesome
discretion, the remedy is not to take it from
them, but to inform their discretion by
education." - Thomas Jefferson
http://GreaterVoice.org/extend |
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PeterBP
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 12:38 am Post subject: Re: The great tax clawback scam - how government milks the p |
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Dan in Philly <djr8@aol.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
"PeterBP" <noway@jose.com> wrote in message ...
but the root cause remains privilege in owning land
I don't see any 'privilege' in owning land anymore; I'm pretty sure it gets
the standard rate of return.
|
The privilege lies in getting to own the labor product of others.
Forgive me if i didn't make it clear enough.
| Quote: |
The real rent-collectors were the ones who originally got the land at less
than the present discounted value of future rents. I suspect few of them (or
their heirs) still own that land.
|
If that is so, then does land still fetch astronomical prices?
--
regards , Peter B. P. - http://titancity.com/blog/
"Don't go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes
you nothing. It was here first." - Mark Twain |
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PeterBP
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 12:38 am Post subject: Re: The great tax clawback scam - how government milks the p |
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Dan in Philly <djr8@aol.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
"PeterBP" <noway@jose.com> wrote in message ...
The Fed doesn't care about land prices. It only cares about inflation
(goods
and services, not assets) and unemployment.
Not quite - it has interest in Seignorage - that is, the profit from
minting money.
Technically, the government gets the seignorage. Ben Bernanke gets paid a
straight salary.
|
Still, government allows the Fed to operate, and if they collect the
profits from its operation, then they are the beneficiaries, yes?
Then there's the debate of whether the Fed and Gov't should be seen as
distint and seperate entities. The above is an implication it should
not.
--
regards , Peter B. P. - http://titancity.com/blog/
"Don't go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes
you nothing. It was here first." - Mark Twain |
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PeterBP
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 2:39 am Post subject: Re: The great tax clawback scam - how government milks the p |
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Mark M. <mark@ztech.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
Werner wrote:
On Jul 1, 2:53 pm, ro...@telus.net wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 16:38:48 -0700 (PDT), Werner <whetz...@mac.com
wrote:
On Jun 29, 3:36=C2=A0pm, no...@jose.com (PeterBP) wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D6ZkfmY1PMng
=2E..
It is not so at all. The titles of nobility are still there, but there
are more people with them, and they are less formal and aristocratic
today than they were then, and the privilege bestowed upon the
titleholder is more subtle.
Here's your choice as a citizen today: Go to work and break your back on
making a living for yourself, your family and the invisible landlord, or
go on welfare, and become a subservient vote sheep of politicians who
stuff your ears full of garbage about fighting for your rights and
welfare, but still in the end serving the priviliged classes - and NOT
you.
That's your cake; eat it!
As welfare people get politicians to force others to pay their bills
for them it seems reasonable to consider them nobility. They are a
socialist aristocracy.
?? ROTFL!!
Yeah, the poor are the aristocracy, the idle rich are the exploited
underclass...
In fact, of course, it is the rent-collecting aristocracy that gets
politicians to force others to pay its bills
If politicians had little power they could dispense fewer privileges
to either rent-collecting aristocracy or rent-collecting welfare
recipients.
Government should be as strong as necessary to oppose the
forces who would seek private gain at the expense of the
common good. Simply making government weak in itself does
not guarantee good results.
Mark M.
|
Then the _minor problem_ of actually defining the 'common good' remains.
If you go ahead and fight for stronger government without haveing a damn
good and consistent definition of what this is, chances are that you'll
leave a legacy of tyranny and more injustice than what you set out with.
This goes for most of the jerks who argue for more government under the
banner of the common good.
Weak government does not guarantee good results, no, but it is a good
was of curing government-created problems, once society has normalized
after the negative influences of big government has receded, assuming it
ever happens.
--
regards , Peter B. P. - http://titancity.com/blog/
"Don't go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes
you nothing. It was here first." - Mark Twain |
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Dan in Philly
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 6:41 pm Post subject: Re: The great tax clawback scam - how government milks the p |
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|
"The Trucker" <mikcob@verizon.net> wrote in message ...
| Quote: |
So what? If I buy a stolen car then it's OK because I paid money for it?
The new "owner" is simply the new thief.
|
If the previous owner paid for it, then it wasn't stolen.
Dan in Philly |
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Dan in Philly
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 6:46 pm Post subject: Re: The great tax clawback scam - how government milks the p |
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"PeterBP" <noway@jose.com> wrote in message ...
| Quote: |
Technically, the government gets the seignorage. Ben Bernanke gets paid a
straight salary.
Still, government allows the Fed to operate, and if they collect the
profits from its operation, then they are the beneficiaries, yes?
|
Yes and that's fine with me. I don't mind the govt getting seignorage. It
becomes part of the budget, thus lowering taxes or increasing spending or
reducing the deficit.
Dan in Philly |
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PeterBP
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 7:05 pm Post subject: Re: The great tax clawback scam - how government milks the p |
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|
Dan in Philly <djr8@aol.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
"PeterBP" <noway@jose.com> wrote in message ...
Technically, the government gets the seignorage. Ben Bernanke gets paid a
straight salary.
Still, government allows the Fed to operate, and if they collect the
profits from its operation, then they are the beneficiaries, yes?
Yes and that's fine with me. I don't mind the govt getting seignorage. It
becomes part of the budget, thus lowering taxes or increasing spending or
reducing the deficit.
Dan in Philly
|
Or so you think. FWIW, I don't see the deficit shrinking as a result of
any purposeful action of the heads of state. And be mindful of who go
you into the mess in the first place.
--
- Peter *** http://titancity.com/blog/
"Don't go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes
you nothing. It was here first." - Mark Twain |
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PeterBP
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 7:39 pm Post subject: Re: The great tax clawback scam - how government milks the p |
|
|
Dan in Philly <djr8@aol.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
"The Trucker" <mikcob@verizon.net> wrote in message ...
So what? If I buy a stolen car then it's OK because I paid money for it?
The new "owner" is simply the new thief.
If the previous owner paid for it, then it wasn't stolen.
Dan in Philly
|
Not by him, at least.
--
- Peter *** http://titancity.com/blog/
"Don't go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes
you nothing. It was here first." - Mark Twain |
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radav
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 8:17 pm Post subject: Re: The great tax clawback scam - how government milks the p |
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On Jul 2, 12:38 pm, no...@jose.com (PeterBP) wrote:
| Quote: |
Dan in Philly <d...@aol.com> wrote:
"PeterBP" <no...@jose.com> wrote in message ...
The Fed doesn't care about land prices. It only cares about inflation
(goods
and services, not assets) and unemployment.
Not quite - it has interest in Seignorage - that is, the profit from
minting money.
Technically, the government gets the seignorage. Ben Bernanke gets paid a
straight salary.
Still, government allows the Fed to operate, and if they collect the
profits from its operation, then they are the beneficiaries, yes?
Then there's the debate of whether the Fed and Gov't should be seen as
distint and seperate entities. The above is an implication it should
not.
--
regards , Peter B. P. -http://titancity.com/blog/
"Don't go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes
you nothing. It was here first." - Mark Twain
|
The Fed is not a gov't agency. Congress puts on a "show" of control
over the Fed. But this is mere window dressing since outside a few
voices crying in the wilderness to abolish the Fed., this nefarious
institution has continued for decades as monetary monopolists.
Wall St., the bankers & brokers are the major clients of the Fed. If
the general interest happens to coincide with Fed policy- well & good-
but this is of secondary importance to the money manipulators. |
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Mark M.
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 4:53 am Post subject: Re: The great tax clawback scam - how government milks the p |
|
|
Werner wrote:
| Quote: |
On Jul 1, 8:14 pm, "Mark M." <m...@ztech.com> wrote:
....
Government should be as strong as necessary to oppose the
forces who would seek private gain at the expense of the
common good. Simply making government weak in itself does
not guarantee good results.
Whose common good?
|
Children and productive adults for starters.
Mark M. |
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Mark M.
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 4:58 am Post subject: Re: The great tax clawback scam - how government milks the p |
|
|
Werner wrote:
| Quote: |
On Jul 2, 12:50 am, The Trucker <mik...@verizon.net> wrote:
On Tue, 01 Jul 2008 21:38:24 -0700, Werner wrote:
On Jul 1, 8:14 pm, "Mark M." <m...@ztech.com> wrote:
....
Government should be as strong as necessary to oppose the
forces who would seek private gain at the expense of the
common good. Simply making government weak in itself does
not guarantee good results.
Whose common good?
http://www.capitaldistrict-lp.org/Myth.shtml
I know I shouldn't try to argue with a queue ball, but I'm bored. It seems
to me that you believe that your version of the common good is better than
the rest of us. It is a religious position as all "good" ultimately must
be; an opinion. Your version of the "common good" is a lack of any form
of common good. That is like some folks want a total lack of religion or
they believe that their particular religion is the very definition of good.
Only a complete and utter moron can believe that there is no "common
good". Such a moron is saying that the lack of "common good" is in the
common good.
--
Enlighten me. What is The Common Good?
|
You know what it is but deny it because the common good is a
reality that threatens your greed-based belief system. You
deny the common good so you can justify your actions of
self-gain at the expense of others. Denying the common good
exposes your self-delusion.
Mark M. |
|
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Mark M.
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 5:01 am Post subject: Re: The great tax clawback scam - how government milks the p |
|
|
PeterBP wrote:
| Quote: |
Mark M. <mark@ztech.com> wrote:
Werner wrote:
On Jul 1, 2:53 pm, ro...@telus.net wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 16:38:48 -0700 (PDT), Werner <whetz...@mac.com
wrote:
On Jun 29, 3:36=C2=A0pm, no...@jose.com (PeterBP) wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D6ZkfmY1PMng
=2E..
It is not so at all. The titles of nobility are still there, but there
are more people with them, and they are less formal and aristocratic
today than they were then, and the privilege bestowed upon the
titleholder is more subtle.
Here's your choice as a citizen today: Go to work and break your back on
making a living for yourself, your family and the invisible landlord, or
go on welfare, and become a subservient vote sheep of politicians who
stuff your ears full of garbage about fighting for your rights and
welfare, but still in the end serving the priviliged classes - and NOT
you.
That's your cake; eat it!
As welfare people get politicians to force others to pay their bills
for them it seems reasonable to consider them nobility. They are a
socialist aristocracy.
?? ROTFL!!
Yeah, the poor are the aristocracy, the idle rich are the exploited
underclass...
In fact, of course, it is the rent-collecting aristocracy that gets
politicians to force others to pay its bills
If politicians had little power they could dispense fewer privileges
to either rent-collecting aristocracy or rent-collecting welfare
recipients.
Government should be as strong as necessary to oppose the
forces who would seek private gain at the expense of the
common good. Simply making government weak in itself does
not guarantee good results.
Mark M.
Then the _minor problem_ of actually defining the 'common good' remains.
|
We all know what the common good means. Only our tendency
toward self-deception can obscure that meaning. Just
because liars use the "the common good" to justify theft
doesn't mean the common good doesn't exist or that it needs
elaborate definition.
Mark M.
| Quote: |
If you go ahead and fight for stronger government without haveing a damn
good and consistent definition of what this is, chances are that you'll
leave a legacy of tyranny and more injustice than what you set out with.
This goes for most of the jerks who argue for more government under the
banner of the common good.
Weak government does not guarantee good results, no, but it is a good
was of curing government-created problems, once society has normalized
after the negative influences of big government has receded, assuming it
ever happens.
|
|
|
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Ads |
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PeterBP
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 6:16 am Post subject: Re: The great tax clawback scam - how government milks the p |
|
|
Mark M. <mark@ztech.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
Werner wrote:
On Jul 2, 12:50 am, The Trucker <mik...@verizon.net> wrote:
On Tue, 01 Jul 2008 21:38:24 -0700, Werner wrote:
On Jul 1, 8:14 pm, "Mark M." <m...@ztech.com> wrote:
....
Government should be as strong as necessary to oppose the
forces who would seek private gain at the expense of the
common good. Simply making government weak in itself does
not guarantee good results.
Whose common good?
http://www.capitaldistrict-lp.org/Myth.shtml
I know I shouldn't try to argue with a queue ball, but I'm bored. It seems
to me that you believe that your version of the common good is better than
the rest of us. It is a religious position as all "good" ultimately must
be; an opinion. Your version of the "common good" is a lack of any form
of common good. That is like some folks want a total lack of religion or
they believe that their particular religion is the very definition of good.
Only a complete and utter moron can believe that there is no "common
good". Such a moron is saying that the lack of "common good" is in the
common good.
--
Enlighten me. What is The Common Good?
You know what it is but deny it because the common good is a
reality that threatens your greed-based belief system.
|
Cop-out, argumentum ad hominnem fallacy.
| Quote: |
You
deny the common good so you can justify your actions of
self-gain at the expense of others. Denying the common good
exposes your self-delusion.
|
A simple question answered by unjustified ad-hominem retorts.
Mark, you have failed. Not only in justifying your position, but indeed
in making your claims of working for a "common good" seem like a
religious crusade for whatever purposes you may have, which I guess,
would be perdy bad if you ever ended up in power.
--
- Peter *** http://titancity.com/blog/
"Don't go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes
you nothing. It was here first." - Mark Twain |
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PeterBP
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 6:16 am Post subject: Re: The great tax clawback scam - how government milks the p |
|
|
Mark M. <mark@ztech.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
PeterBP wrote:
Mark M. <mark@ztech.com> wrote:
If politicians had little power they could dispense fewer privileges
to either rent-collecting aristocracy or rent-collecting welfare
recipients.
Government should be as strong as necessary to oppose the
forces who would seek private gain at the expense of the
common good. Simply making government weak in itself does
not guarantee good results.
Mark M.
Then the _minor problem_ of actually defining the 'common good' remains.
We all know what the common good means.
|
No we don't. If "we" did, we did not need to have this discussion.
| Quote: |
Only our tendency
toward self-deception can obscure that meaning.
|
Individual differences is not self-deception.
Also, appeals to "self-deception" as a way of explaining away opposition
to your stance is inherently religious in nature.
| Quote: |
Just
because liars use the "the common good" to justify theft
doesn't mean the common good doesn't exist or that it needs
elaborate definition.
|
On the contrary. That there are liars is no surprise, but it does NOT
excuse you or anyone else riding a swift horse towards more government
intervention under the banner of The Common Good to get a free pass and
a pardon from explaining the terms you use. "Everyone knows that" is
also a commonly used cop-out from the duty to explain a given thing when
a certain concept has been used and put into question.
Fact of the matter is that there are ALWAYS payoffs on policy decisions,
and in some cases the "common" good isn't so common at all. A good that
concieveably is good for 99% of the population while bad for 1% might
indeed be termed common (FWIW, i believe land value taxation is one
such, to state an example). If it is good for 90% and bad for 10% it
*may* be termed so, but if it is good for 30% and bad for the rest,
you're doing a mighty big stretch to justify the wording of the term and
implementing policies that claim to be for bolstering the concept behind
that term.
Then there is the question of how hard it strikes those who it strikes.
Would you make 99% of your nation's populace happy if it required that
the remaining 1% get killed or enslaved for life under brutal
conditions?
People flying under the good pretensions of "the common good" never
mention the sacrifices this concept always entails. I wonder why?
| Quote: |
Mark M.
If you go ahead and fight for stronger government without haveing a damn
good and consistent definition of what this is, chances are that you'll
leave a legacy of tyranny and more injustice than what you set out with.
This goes for most of the jerks who argue for more government under the
banner of the common good.
Weak government does not guarantee good results, no, but it is a good
was of curing government-created problems, once society has normalized
after the negative influences of big government has receded, assuming it
ever happens.
|
--
- Peter *** http://titancity.com/blog/
"Don't go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes
you nothing. It was here first." - Mark Twain |
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