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Ye Old One
Guest
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 Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 11:01 am Post subject: Re: Re: A Few Simple Questions |
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On Mon, 30 Jun 2008 15:57:27 -0700 (PDT), Ray Martinez
<pyramidial@yahoo.com> enriched this group when s/he wrote:
| Quote: |
On Jun 30, 1:04 pm, Mark Isaak <eci...@earthlink.net> wrote:
On Mon, 30 Jun 2008 10:39:58 -0700, Ray Martinez wrote:
On Jun 29, 4:51 pm, Mark Isaak <eci...@earthlink.net> wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 14:31:48 -0700, Ray Martinez wrote:
False assumption/comparison: facts about zoos falsifies claims
concerning the Ark.
Oh, the claims concerning the Ark are pleny falsified already. The
comparison with zoos is just to show how absurd the ark is.
Your comments are built on a false assumption: that the Ark carried
every animal species that exists on Earth today.
Either that, or the animal species evolved. Since Ray rejects
evolution, Ray Martinez is saying the Bible is false.
Mark: where does the Bible say that every animal species on Earth was
on the Ark?
Every *land* animal species. Genesis 7:23.
Are you saying that this verse is talking about the whole Earth?
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Are you claiming it was NOT a global flood?
| Quote: |
If so, could you show it to me - I don't see any words or phrases
referring to the whole Earth. But if it is referring to the Earth does
that mean the whole Earth or the then known Earth?
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Are you saying that most of the Earth was not flooded?
| Quote: |
You will probably quibble that it does not say "species."
No I won't. I haven't said anything. I have merely asked how you to
interpret these verses and I have put forth further questioning only
to be ignored. You are a chief proponent that the Bible says every
species on Earth was represented on the Ark.
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That is what the text said.
| Quote: |
But you have not been
able to show me where or how you obtain this idea?
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Read the text.
| Quote: |
"every" or "all" does or does not mean whole Earth
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"Every" and "all" seem quite clear to everyone except you Dishonest
Ray.
| Quote: |
and if so are you
admitting that the Bible is implying a round Earth?
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Where does it say that?
| Quote: |
Or do the quoted words mean hemisphere or forrest or something else?
Of course you are straight out saying that these words mean the whole
Earth. Why won't you answer this question? And if the whole Earth you
are saying the same means round Earth?
|
How do you work that out?
| Quote: |
Come on, Mark - fork up some answers.
But since it
refers to every individual animal, that would be moot. "Every existing
thing that was on the surface of the ground" necessarily includes every
land species.
On the Earth?
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That is what it says.
| Quote: |
Or in the then known world?
|
Are you now claiming the mythical flood was NOT global?
--
Bob. |
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Ray Martinez
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 3:07 am Post subject: Re: A Few Simple Questions |
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On Jun 30, 7:52 pm, dwolf...@panix.com (David Wolff) wrote:
| Quote: |
In article <ede407fa-1f39-43af-b13d-fb16f24b9...@i36g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
Ray Martinez <pyramid...@yahoo.com> wrote:
[snip]> Of course you are straight out saying that these words mean the whole
Earth. Why won't you answer this question? And if the whole Earth you
are saying the same means round Earth?
[snip]
Isaiah 11:12
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the
outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the
FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH.
|
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2008/05/20080515-1.html
"The joy of independence was tempered by the outbreak of battle, a
struggle that has continued for six decades. Yet in spite of the
violence, in defiance of the threats, Israel has built a thriving
democracy in the heart of the Holy Land. You have welcomed immigrants
from the four corners of the Earth."
--President Bush (May 15, 2008; addressing the Israeli Knesset).
Surely you are not saying that Bush believes the Earth to be flat? Of
course the phrase "four corners of the Earth" simply means
everywhere----north, east, south and west. Of course you are acting
like you do not understand, that is, a person who presumably graduated
from college, who presumably understands complicated scientific
jargon, computer jargon, and most common expressions of figurative
speech, but you do not suddenly understand what "four corners of the
Earth" means? Of course you are an ordinary Atheist "interpreting" the
Bible to make it look silly.
| Quote: |
So, Ray, how does a sphere have corners?
You have a choice, Ray:
(1) The Earth is flat.
(b) The Earth is a tetrahedron.
(3) The Earth is a sphere and you are a heretic for not believing the
clear word of the Bible.
Which is it?
-- DW
|
In fact, when we remember that you are an Atheist and an evolutionist
your "points" concerning the Bible, that is, the source which says
your worldview is evil, are explained instantly.
Ray |
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David Wolff
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 3:46 am Post subject: Re: A Few Simple Questions |
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In article <51231dd6-da66-4e7e-9d00-cf0238ae8e83@w1g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,
Ray Martinez <pyramidial@yahoo.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
On Jun 30, 7:52 pm, dwolf...@panix.com (David Wolff) wrote:
In article
ede407fa-1f39-43af-b13d-fb16f24b9...@i36g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
Ray Martinez <pyramid...@yahoo.com> wrote:
[snip]> Of course you are straight out saying that these words mean the whole
Earth. Why won't you answer this question? And if the whole Earth you
are saying the same means round Earth?
[snip]
Isaiah 11:12
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the
outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the
FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2008/05/20080515-1.html
"The joy of independence was tempered by the outbreak of battle, a
struggle that has continued for six decades. Yet in spite of the
violence, in defiance of the threats, Israel has built a thriving
democracy in the heart of the Holy Land. You have welcomed immigrants
from the four corners of the Earth."
--President Bush (May 15, 2008; addressing the Israeli Knesset).
Surely you are not saying that Bush believes the Earth to be flat? Of
course the phrase "four corners of the Earth" simply means
everywhere----north, east, south and west. Of course you are acting
like you do not understand, that is, a person who presumably graduated
from college, who presumably understands complicated scientific
jargon, computer jargon, and most common expressions of figurative
speech, but you do not suddenly understand what "four corners of the
Earth" means? Of course you are an ordinary Atheist "interpreting" the
Bible to make it look silly.
|
"Corners", Ray. That's the word used *in the Bible*, Ray. Are you
saying the Bible can't be taken literally? Are you saying the word of
God is figurative? If you do... well, that way lies heresy.
| Quote: |
So, Ray, how does a sphere have corners?
You have a choice, Ray:
(1) The Earth is flat.
(b) The Earth is a tetrahedron.
(3) The Earth is a sphere and you are a heretic for not believing the
clear word of the Bible.
Which is it?
-- DW
In fact, when we remember that you are an Atheist and an evolutionist
your "points" concerning the Bible, that is, the source which says
your worldview is evil, are explained instantly.
|
In fact, when we remember that you are a heretic, your willingness to
deny the clear and obvious word of the Bible is explained instantly.
-- DW
(Remove "xx" to reply.) |
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Rupert Morrish
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 8:27 am Post subject: Re: A Few Simple Questions |
|
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Ray Martinez wrote:
| Quote: |
On Jun 30, 7:52 pm, dwolf...@panix.com (David Wolff) wrote:
In article <ede407fa-1f39-43af-b13d-fb16f24b9...@i36g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
Ray Martinez <pyramid...@yahoo.com> wrote:
[snip]> Of course you are straight out saying that these words mean the whole
Earth. Why won't you answer this question? And if the whole Earth you
are saying the same means round Earth?
[snip]
Isaiah 11:12
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the
outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the
FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2008/05/20080515-1.html
"The joy of independence was tempered by the outbreak of battle, a
struggle that has continued for six decades. Yet in spite of the
violence, in defiance of the threats, Israel has built a thriving
democracy in the heart of the Holy Land. You have welcomed immigrants
from the four corners of the Earth."
--President Bush (May 15, 2008; addressing the Israeli Knesset).
Surely you are not saying that Bush believes the Earth to be flat? Of
course the phrase "four corners of the Earth" simply means
everywhere----north, east, south and west.
|
It may surprise you to learn this, but the language of the bible has an
influence on modern spoken English.
If Bush were to say "The writing is on the wall for terrorists"
(http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/416550.html) I would not assume that
US soldiers in Afghanistan were being equipped with cans of spray paint.
However, the *original* use of the phrase *did* refer to literal writing
on the wall.
Likewise, while "the four corners of the Earth" may not *now* mean four
literal corners, I don't think that you have established that the
literal meaning of the phrase was not the intent of the original author.
| Quote: |
Of course you are acting
like you do not understand, that is, a person who presumably graduated
from college, who presumably understands complicated scientific
jargon, computer jargon, and most common expressions of figurative
speech, but you do not suddenly understand what "four corners of the
Earth" means? Of course you are an ordinary Atheist "interpreting" the
Bible to make it look silly.
|
He understands what it means today. That is not the same thing as what
it meant when it was written. You don't need a gift minister to work
this out.
| Quote: |
So, Ray, how does a sphere have corners?
You have a choice, Ray:
(1) The Earth is flat.
(b) The Earth is a tetrahedron.
(3) The Earth is a sphere and you are a heretic for not believing the
clear word of the Bible.
Which is it?
-- DW
In fact, when we remember that you are an Atheist and an evolutionist
your "points" concerning the Bible, that is, the source which says
your worldview is evil, are explained instantly.
|
Ad hominem = inability to refute.
The bible is only one source that condemns atheism. Why do you feel
atheists single out the bible for this treatment, as compared with every
other religious text ever written?
|
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Dana Tweedy
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 8:30 am Post subject: Re: A Few Simple Questions |
|
|
"Ray Martinez" <pyramidial@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:51231dd6-da66-4e7e-9d00-cf0238ae8e83@w1g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: |
On Jun 30, 7:52 pm, dwolf...@panix.com (David Wolff) wrote:
In article
ede407fa-1f39-43af-b13d-fb16f24b9...@i36g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
Ray Martinez <pyramid...@yahoo.com> wrote:
[snip]> Of course you are straight out saying that these words mean the
whole
Earth. Why won't you answer this question? And if the whole Earth you
are saying the same means round Earth?
[snip]
Isaiah 11:12
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the
outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the
FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2008/05/20080515-1.html
"The joy of independence was tempered by the outbreak of battle, a
struggle that has continued for six decades. Yet in spite of the
violence, in defiance of the threats, Israel has built a thriving
democracy in the heart of the Holy Land. You have welcomed immigrants
from the four corners of the Earth."
--President Bush (May 15, 2008; addressing the Israeli Knesset).
Surely you are not saying that Bush believes the Earth to be flat?
|
With W, it's hard to tell....
| Quote: |
Of
course the phrase "four corners of the Earth" simply means
everywhere----north, east, south and west.
|
Of course, the expression comes from the Bible's use of the term.
| Quote: |
Of course you are acting
like you do not understand, that is, a person who presumably graduated
from college, who presumably understands complicated scientific
jargon, computer jargon, and most common expressions of figurative
speech,
|
which shows you are jealous of those who actually understand such things,
| Quote: |
but you do not suddenly understand what "four corners of the
Earth" means?
|
You mean the "plain prose" of the Bible doesn't mean what it says? Isn't
it "only atheists" who claim the Bible doesn't mean what it says?
| Quote: |
Of course you are an ordinary Atheist "interpreting" the
Bible to make it look silly.
|
One doesn't need an "atheist" to do that, Ray, you do quite a good job on
your own.
| Quote: |
So, Ray, how does a sphere have corners?
You have a choice, Ray:
(1) The Earth is flat.
(b) The Earth is a tetrahedron.
(3) The Earth is a sphere and you are a heretic for not believing the
clear word of the Bible.
Which is it?
-- DW
In fact, when we remember that you are an Atheist and an evolutionist
your "points" concerning the Bible, that is, the source which says
your worldview is evil, are explained instantly.
|
Still running away from the evidence, Ray?
Also, where does the Bible say that any "worldview" is evil? People
may be evil, but how can a "worldview" be evil? I don't know of any Bible
verse that says that atheism is "evil". For that matter, what evidence do
you have that David is an atheist?
DJT |
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Shane
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 9:09 am Post subject: Re: A Few Simple Questions |
|
|
On Tue, 1 Jul 2008 20:07:38 -0700 (PDT), Ray Martinez wrote:
| Quote: |
On Jun 30, 7:52 pm, dwolf...@panix.com (David Wolff) wrote:
In article <ede407fa-1f39-43af-b13d-fb16f24b9...@i36g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
Ray Martinez <pyramid...@yahoo.com> wrote:
[snip]> Of course you are straight out saying that these words mean the whole
Earth. Why won't you answer this question? And if the whole Earth you
are saying the same means round Earth?
[snip]
Isaiah 11:12
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the
outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the
FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2008/05/20080515-1.html
"The joy of independence was tempered by the outbreak of battle, a
struggle that has continued for six decades. Yet in spite of the
violence, in defiance of the threats, Israel has built a thriving
democracy in the heart of the Holy Land. You have welcomed immigrants
from the four corners of the Earth."
--President Bush (May 15, 2008; addressing the Israeli Knesset).
Surely you are not saying that Bush believes the Earth to be flat? Of
course the phrase "four corners of the Earth" simply means
everywhere----north, east, south and west. Of course you are acting
like you do not understand, that is, a person who presumably graduated
from college, who presumably understands complicated scientific
jargon, computer jargon, and most common expressions of figurative
speech, but you do not suddenly understand what "four corners of the
Earth" means? Of course you are an ordinary Atheist "interpreting" the
Bible to make it look silly.
|
Surely you are not saying that just as we take Bush's words
allegorically we should do the same with the bible?
[...] |
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John Wilkins
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 11:01 am Post subject: Re: A Few Simple Questions |
|
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Martin Andersen <dur@ikke.nu> wrote:
| Quote: |
John Wilkins wrote:
Martin Andersen <dur@ikke.nu> wrote:
John Wilkins wrote:
[snip: explanation]
Roger.
If you're saying I harbor an underlying assumption, then yes. That is,
if the universal quality in this case is their ability to interbreed,
and not some incidental morphological characteristic or set of them.
And yet there are a good many species, agreed to be species by all (such
as tigers, irrespective of whether there is one species or nine of them,
and lions, now only a single species on any account) that can and do
interbreed, passing genes from one species into the other (a process
called introgression). In birds, lizards, mammals, fishes, insects and
pretty well every sexual animal group of organisms, there are hybrids
that are fertile. So that species definition, while it plays out for a
great many species pairs, is not universally true of all species.
I guess one can only wonder why we didn't start to consider tigers and
lions two varieties of the same species, instead of keeping the old
labels and turning the species concept into something vaguer and ambiguous.
|
Things shifted to and fro for centuries after Ray - Buffon in the late
18thC and Wasmann in the early 20thC both held that a "natural" species
was something at the level of a Linnean "family"*. Throughout the 19thC,
people were naming any variety a species. Finally zoologists and
botanists settled on the current general level because it works.
| Quote: |
We have handy definitions for what constitutes mountains and not mere
hills. The number may be arbitrary but it's still there. How do *you*
decide what is or isn't of the same species?
Observation. Basically if the populations of a species remain distinct
enough from other populations of near relatives, they are a species.
Some sort of majority vote?
|
Of the organisms, not the biologists, yes.
| Quote: |
"Species" is not a theoretical term. It's a phenomenological object
class, like mountains. Definitions are arbitrary, but the objects exist
nevertheless and they are not arbitrary or conventional.
|
--
John S. Wilkins, Postdoctoral Research Fellow, Philosophy
University of Queensland - Blog: scienceblogs.com/evolvingthoughts
"He used... sarcasm. He knew all the tricks, dramatic irony, metaphor,
bathos, puns, parody, litotes and... satire. He was vicious." |
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David Wolff
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 3:00 am Post subject: Re: A Few Simple Questions |
|
|
In article <ccc08d52-1cb2-4421-8fba-3cf62e620e84@s33g2000pri.googlegroups.com>,
Ray Martinez <pyramidial@yahoo.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
On Jul 1, 8:46 pm, dwolf...@panix.com (David Wolff) wrote:
In article <51231dd6-da66-4e7e-9d00-cf0238ae8...@w1g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,
Ray Martinez <pyramid...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Jun 30, 7:52 pm, dwolf...@panix.com (David Wolff) wrote:
In article
ede407fa-1f39-43af-b13d-fb16f24b9...@i36g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
Ray Martinez <pyramid...@yahoo.com> wrote:
[snip]> Of course you are straight out saying that these words
v> mean the whole
Earth. Why won't you answer this question? And if the whole Earth you
are saying the same means round Earth?
[snip]
Isaiah 11:12
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the
outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the
FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2008/05/20080515-1.html
"The joy of independence was tempered by the outbreak of battle, a
struggle that has continued for six decades. Yet in spite of the
violence, in defiance of the threats, Israel has built a thriving
democracy in the heart of the Holy Land. You have welcomed immigrants
from the four corners of the Earth."
--President Bush (May 15, 2008; addressing the Israeli Knesset).
Surely you are not saying that Bush believes the Earth to be flat? Of
course the phrase "four corners of the Earth" simply means
everywhere----north, east, south and west. Of course you are acting
like you do not understand, that is, a person who presumably graduated
from college, who presumably understands complicated scientific
jargon, computer jargon, and most common expressions of figurative
speech, but you do not suddenly understand what "four corners of the
Earth" means? Of course you are an ordinary Atheist "interpreting" the
Bible to make it look silly.
"Corners", Ray. That's the word used *in the Bible*, Ray. Are you
saying the Bible can't be taken literally? Are you saying the word of
God is figurative? If you do... well, that way lies heresy.
This comment defines "literally" to mean "without intelligent common
sense comprehension." It also presupposes "figurative" to not be
communicating truth corresponding to reality by figurative speech.
|
Okay, Ray, answer a simple question and I'll stop calling you a heretic.
Is the "four corners of the Earth" in the Bible a figure of speech?
That is, not literal?
[snippage]
| Quote: |
(1) The Earth is flat.
(b) The Earth is a tetrahedron.
(3) The Earth is a sphere and you are a heretic for not believing the
clear word of the Bible.
|
Here's your opportunity for redemption, a modified (3): "The Earth is a
sphere and the Bible contains at least one non-literal figure of
speech." Is that what you believe?
-- DW
(Remove "xx" to reply.) |
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John Wilkins
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 7:50 am Post subject: Re: A Few Simple Questions |
|
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Dana Tweedy <reddfrogg@bresnan.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
"Tiny Bulcher" <alycidon9@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:2fGdnYQdc5Hz0PDVnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@bt.com...
Thus cwaeth Dana Tweedy :
"Ray Martinez" <pyramidial@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ccc08d52-1cb2-4421-8fba-3cf62e620e84@s33g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
By the standard set forth in David
Wolff's "argument" I am actually having a conversation with a wolf
who can read and type and use a computer. Of course David's
"argument" only applies to the Bible----that is why I placed quote
marks around the word argument.
Ray, you again seem to be saying that the Bible doesn't mean what it
says. Earlier you have claimed that only atheists believe that.... Are
you now claiming to be an atheist?
Hold hard, there, sir! We don't want him! He's all yours!
*throws Ray back into the theist camp*
What if we throw in Amy Grant, and an agnostic to be named later?
Which agnostic, or don't you know? |
--
John S. Wilkins, Postdoctoral Research Fellow, Philosophy
University of Queensland - Blog: scienceblogs.com/evolvingthoughts
"He used... sarcasm. He knew all the tricks, dramatic irony, metaphor,
bathos, puns, parody, litotes and... satire. He was vicious." |
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Rupert Morrish
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 8:42 am Post subject: Re: A Few Simple Questions |
|
|
John Wilkins wrote:
| Quote: |
Dana Tweedy <reddfrogg@bresnan.net> wrote:
"Tiny Bulcher" <alycidon9@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:2fGdnYQdc5Hz0PDVnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@bt.com...
Thus cwaeth Dana Tweedy :
"Ray Martinez" <pyramidial@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ccc08d52-1cb2-4421-8fba-3cf62e620e84@s33g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
By the standard set forth in David
Wolff's "argument" I am actually having a conversation with a wolf
who can read and type and use a computer. Of course David's
"argument" only applies to the Bible----that is why I placed quote
marks around the word argument.
Ray, you again seem to be saying that the Bible doesn't mean what it
says. Earlier you have claimed that only atheists believe that.... Are
you now claiming to be an atheist?
Hold hard, there, sir! We don't want him! He's all yours!
*throws Ray back into the theist camp*
What if we throw in Amy Grant, and an agnostic to be named later?
|
I think Ray should have the first draft pick. His religion, whatever
it's called today, didn't score a point all season.
| Quote: |
Which agnostic, or don't you know?
|
Can they know?
> |
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Caranx latus
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 9:30 am Post subject: Re: A Few Simple Questions |
|
|
Rupert Morrish wrote:
<snip>
| Quote: |
I think Ray should have the first draft pick. His religion, whatever
it's called today
|
Scottism (rhymes with autism) |
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Rolf
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 11:01 am Post subject: Re: A Few Simple Questions |
|
|
"Ray Martinez" <pyramidial@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ccc08d52-1cb2-4421-8fba-3cf62e620e84@s33g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: |
On Jul 1, 8:46 pm, dwolf...@panix.com (David Wolff) wrote:
In article
51231dd6-da66-4e7e-9d00-cf0238ae8...@w1g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,
Ray Martinez <pyramid...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Jun 30, 7:52 pm, dwolf...@panix.com (David Wolff) wrote:
In article
ede407fa-1f39-43af-b13d-fb16f24b9...@i36g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
Ray Martinez <pyramid...@yahoo.com> wrote:
[snip]> Of course you are straight out saying that these words mean
the whole
Earth. Why won't you answer this question? And if the whole Earth
you
are saying the same means round Earth?
[snip]
Isaiah 11:12
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble
the
outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from
the
FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2008/05/20080515-1.html
"The joy of independence was tempered by the outbreak of battle, a
struggle that has continued for six decades. Yet in spite of the
violence, in defiance of the threats, Israel has built a thriving
democracy in the heart of the Holy Land. You have welcomed immigrants
from the four corners of the Earth."
--President Bush (May 15, 2008; addressing the Israeli Knesset).
Surely you are not saying that Bush believes the Earth to be flat? Of
course the phrase "four corners of the Earth" simply means
everywhere----north, east, south and west. Of course you are acting
like you do not understand, that is, a person who presumably graduated
from college, who presumably understands complicated scientific
jargon, computer jargon, and most common expressions of figurative
speech, but you do not suddenly understand what "four corners of the
Earth" means? Of course you are an ordinary Atheist "interpreting" the
Bible to make it look silly.
"Corners", Ray. That's the word used *in the Bible*, Ray. Are you
saying the Bible can't be taken literally? Are you saying the word of
God is figurative? If you do... well, that way lies heresy.
This comment defines "literally" to mean "without intelligent common
sense comprehension." It also presupposes "figurative" to not be
communicating truth corresponding to reality by figurative speech.
Is David Wolff dumb or is he an Atheist treating the Book that says
his worldview is evil and false the way Atheists and evolutionists are
expected to treat such a Book?
I wonder if David treats books written by Atheists and evolutionists
the same way? Of course that is the only way my argument above can be
refuted.
More importantly, the Biblical use of the expression in question and
President Bush use of the same expression have the exact same meaning.
Neither have anything to do with saying the Earth is flat.
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I beg to differ. Bush (presumably) knows the Earth is not flat; the authors
of the scriptures knew nothing and wrote from their ignorance. As late as
the second (or third?) century, Irenaeus brings forward the four canonical
gospels as authoritative: 'It is not possible that the Gospels can be either
more or fewer in number than they are, for there are four zones of the world
and four principal winds.'
| Quote: |
So, Ray, how does a sphere have corners?
You have a choice, Ray:
(1) The Earth is flat.
(b) The Earth is a tetrahedron.
(3) The Earth is a sphere and you are a heretic for not believing
the
clear word of the Bible.
Which is it?
-- DW
In fact, when we remember that you are an Atheist and an evolutionist
your "points" concerning the Bible, that is, the source which says
your worldview is evil, are explained instantly.
In fact, when we remember that you are a heretic, your willingness to
deny the clear and obvious word of the Bible is explained instantly.
-- DW
(Remove "xx" to reply.)- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
I am glad a person who claims to believe the expression "four corners
of the Earth" to mean "flat Earth" rejects me. The approval of his
kind would surely make me like him. By the standard set forth in David
Wolff's "argument" I am actually having a conversation with a wolf who
can read and type and use a computer. Of course David's "argument"
only applies to the Bible----that is why I placed quote marks around
the word argument.
Ray
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Rolf
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 11:01 am Post subject: Re: A Few Simple Questions |
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"Ray Martinez" <pyramidial@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:926d720f-2bfd-4c82-bffd-bd8c1e3cde52@s33g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: |
On Jun 27, 12:51 pm, "Dana Tweedy" <reddfr...@bresnan.net> wrote:
"Ray Martinez" <pyramid...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:0dd66fe4-6a2f-4b57-9d34-a27d5035cc91@j1g2000prb.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 20, 11:14 am, "Devil's Advocaat" <mankyg...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
I would like to present the following questions to Ray, Gabriel,
Apobetics, Adman and others of that body who seem to oppose the
theory
of evolution on religious grounds.
We oppose evolution on scientific grounds only.
Yet you haven't produced any scientific grounds to oppose evolution.
You've only offered religious objections. Whatscientific findings to you
feel are in conflict with evolutionary theory?
Brazen and blatant lie: we have argued and shown evolution to be
scientifically false. I have personally shown evolution to be a false
interpretation of evidence based on the fact that there is no
mechanism to accomplish change.
What is a “kind” as described in Genesis?
I have already answered this question. Why have you ignored?
Ray, your "answer" was hardly useful, or even coherent. What is a
"kind" and how do you determine what 'kind' any particular creature
belongs
to?
Genesis tells us plainly what a "kind" is. Your question contains a
false presupposition.
Is this the same as the “kind” described in Exodus?
What verse or verses are you referring to?
Maybe it was a "typo" and he meant Genesis, as in Genesis 7:14.
"They had with them every wild animal according to its kind, all
livestock
according to their kinds, every creature that moves along the ground
according to its kind and every bird according to its kind, everything
with
wings."
That being said, do you agree that "everything with wings" is a bird?
Can two of one “kind” mate and produce fertile offspring?
I look forward to your answers and the debate that will ensue.
The fact that God made Noah collect to of every species (male and
female) tells us the answer.
Ray, can you please explain how Noah managed to get a pair of every
species
(both living and now extinct) into the "Ark" with the dimentions
described
in the Bible, and keep them alive for over a year? Here's some other
practical problems with the Noah's Ark
story.....http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html
Will you adress these issues, or just run away some more.
DJT
First of all the dimensions of the Ark are quite massive. It was over
two football fields long. The cubit mentioned = 25 British inches.
And IIRC the Text does not say "every species on Earth."
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Now I finally understand it all: the dinosaurs and all the so-called extinct
species - they were left behind by Noah. But he must have been a master at
insect collecting. The millions of insects, beetles, spiders - he really
brought all of them with him on the ark? (probably just eggs;-)
| Quote: |
So what are you talking about?
Ray
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Bob Casanova
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| Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 4:55 am Post subject: Re: A Few Simple Questions |
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On Sat, 5 Jul 2008 11:42:56 -0700, the following appeared in
talk.origins, posted by billmurray45@msn.com (Bill Murray):
| Quote: |
Noah is probably a story from the Gildamesh.
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"Gilgamesh".
And it probably is.
--
Bob C.
"Evidence confirming an observation is
evidence that the observation is wrong."
- McNameless |
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Mike Painter
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| Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 11:01 am Post subject: Re: A Few Simple Questions |
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Vernon Balbert wrote:
<snip>
| Quote: |
Now I finally understand it all: the dinosaurs and all the so-called
extinct species - they were left behind by Noah. But he must have
been a master at insect collecting. The millions of insects,
beetles, spiders - he really brought all of them with him on the
ark? (probably just eggs;-)
How do you determine if an egg is a male or female?
|
I think the way that Bill Cosby as Noah solved the problem when he found he
had two male hippos or some other large animals. Ask god to make sure.
Years ago when service stations gave out prizes for buying gas they had a
Noah's Ark you could buy and every time you filled up you got a pair of
animals.
I got a pair of frogs one day and my girl friend asked that same question.
She turned them over and said "Oh"...
Seems there was a little oblong bump where a mammals penis would be. |
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