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Bob Casanova
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 Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 3:28 am Post subject: Re: Not Just the US With Education Problems |
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On Fri, 06 Jun 2008 09:03:02 +0200, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by Thurisaz the Einherjer
<MAILTOsecretary@carcosa.de>:
| Quote: |
Bob Casanova:
Any EE uses logs; ever heard the term "decibel"?
True. But the average joe rarely has to do any _calculations_ about
decibels, does he? 
|
Well, no...but most audiophools sling the term around, as do
newsmen with "Richter Scale", even if they have no idea what
it means. But point taken.
--
Bob C.
"Evidence confirming an observation is
evidence that the observation is wrong."
- McNameless |
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Bob Casanova
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| Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 3:35 am Post subject: Re: Not Just the US With Education Problems |
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On Fri, 06 Jun 2008 12:24:12 -0700, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by Vernon Balbert
<vbalbert@gmail.nospam.com>:
| Quote: |
On 6/6/2008 4:38 AM, tgdenning@earthlink.net went clickity clack on the
keyboard and produced this interesting bit of text:
On Jun 6, 7:10 am, "alwaysaskingquestions"
alwaysaskingquesti...@gmail.com> wrote:
tgdenn...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:c2998cc9-3166-4b7f-9472-0ee59c142e05@x41g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 6, 4:50 am, "alwaysaskingquestions"
alwaysaskingquesti...@gmail.com> wrote:
tgdenn...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:e4782473-3eab-4b4f-8621-7f9c1c621149@p25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 5, 1:46 am, Thurisaz the Einherjer <MAILTOsecret...@carcosa.de
wrote:
tgdenn...@earthlink.net:
What are 'logarithmic maths that you do in your head'? And what
engineers use such skills?
Why is is so difficult for people to be explicit about what they
mean
by 'advanced mathematics'?
Hey I wrote that posting pretty spontaneously, okay? If my example
doesn't
make much sense, so be it. You know what I mean, don't you?
I really had two points: One was simply that I *don't* know what you
might mean by 'logarithmic maths' so I was curious---I didn't think
that anyone did much about logarithms anymore ( even 20 ya), and I
thought maybe this was a case of 'the other English language' at
work. ;-)
The other was the serious one which is that despite math and science
being all about precision of language, when people talk about
education in those subjects they tend to be incredibly vague. To have
a serious discussion, it really does matter what engineers need to be
able to do, and what voters need to be able to do, and so on.
This is an example of how a potentially mind numbing subject can be made
interesting; when my son was a teenager, he detested maths but he was mad
into guitars; he decided to make his own guitar for a school project and
was
totally fascinated when I showed him how the spacing of the frets are a
logarithmic scale and went on to show him how all music is actually
logarithmic.
Excellent example. The contrast is between what I (and others
obviously) learned, which was how to employ logarithms for
calculation, even though we were never likely to use them, and a
comprehensive examination of the delights of mathematics associated
with something that is, yes, *relevant* to a young person.
The point is that we don't have people learning the 'skills' involved
in finding numbers in a table and interpolating to increase the
accuracy of the results. That doesn't contribute to understanding
anything, or if it does in some minor way, whatever that understanding
is can be developed in other ways.
Some of it may have to do with personal inclination - I have always been
fascinated with both puzzles in general and with knowing how things work; in
my first job - just before the introduction of desktop calculators - I had
to learn how to use a slide rule and was thought it was a fantastic
invention.
Yes, I earned my nerd status with a little plastic slide rule that was
always in my shirt pocket, I think even before high school. (No pocket-
protector though.) But again a great example---a good slide rule
could 'do logarithms' to 3-4 decimal places sometimes, which was more
than enough. A current parallel might be students learning 4 ways to
'solve' quadratic equations or find trigonometric solutions when their
$12 calculator can do it in an instant.
When I was in high school physics, my teacher had a race where he'd use
a slide rule and we'd use our calculators to try to get the same answer.
He won every time. I used both a calculator and a slide rule. I had
a programmable calculator and it was more fun to use, but the slide rule
was pretty nifty and I enjoyed using it. <sigh> Where can you find one
now? And can you find a graphing slide rule? ;)
|
Well, I still have two - a Dietzgen log-log decitrig and a
Pickett dual-base speed rule, both 10". But I use my HP 15C
quite a bit more often than either... ;-)
--
Bob C.
"Evidence confirming an observation is
evidence that the observation is wrong."
- McNameless |
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Robert J. Kolker
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| Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 3:44 am Post subject: Re: Not Just the US With Education Problems |
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Bob Casanova wrote:>
| Quote: |
Well, no...but most audiophools sling the term around, as do
newsmen with "Richter Scale", even if they have no idea what
it means. But point taken.
|
Anyone who does an order of magnitude estimate is using logarithms.
Bob Kolker |
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Free Lunch
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 3:55 am Post subject: Re: Not Just the US With Education Problems |
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|
On Fri, 06 Jun 2008 15:35:14 -0700, Bob Casanova <nospam@buzz.off>
wrote:
| Quote: |
On Fri, 06 Jun 2008 12:24:12 -0700, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by Vernon Balbert
vbalbert@gmail.nospam.com>:
On 6/6/2008 4:38 AM, tgdenning@earthlink.net went clickity clack on the
keyboard and produced this interesting bit of text:
On Jun 6, 7:10 am, "alwaysaskingquestions"
alwaysaskingquesti...@gmail.com> wrote:
tgdenn...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:c2998cc9-3166-4b7f-9472-0ee59c142e05@x41g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 6, 4:50 am, "alwaysaskingquestions"
alwaysaskingquesti...@gmail.com> wrote:
tgdenn...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:e4782473-3eab-4b4f-8621-7f9c1c621149@p25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 5, 1:46 am, Thurisaz the Einherjer <MAILTOsecret...@carcosa.de
wrote:
tgdenn...@earthlink.net:
What are 'logarithmic maths that you do in your head'? And what
engineers use such skills?
Why is is so difficult for people to be explicit about what they
mean
by 'advanced mathematics'?
Hey I wrote that posting pretty spontaneously, okay? If my example
doesn't
make much sense, so be it. You know what I mean, don't you?
I really had two points: One was simply that I *don't* know what you
might mean by 'logarithmic maths' so I was curious---I didn't think
that anyone did much about logarithms anymore ( even 20 ya), and I
thought maybe this was a case of 'the other English language' at
work. ;-)
The other was the serious one which is that despite math and science
being all about precision of language, when people talk about
education in those subjects they tend to be incredibly vague. To have
a serious discussion, it really does matter what engineers need to be
able to do, and what voters need to be able to do, and so on.
This is an example of how a potentially mind numbing subject can be made
interesting; when my son was a teenager, he detested maths but he was mad
into guitars; he decided to make his own guitar for a school project and
was
totally fascinated when I showed him how the spacing of the frets are a
logarithmic scale and went on to show him how all music is actually
logarithmic.
Excellent example. The contrast is between what I (and others
obviously) learned, which was how to employ logarithms for
calculation, even though we were never likely to use them, and a
comprehensive examination of the delights of mathematics associated
with something that is, yes, *relevant* to a young person.
The point is that we don't have people learning the 'skills' involved
in finding numbers in a table and interpolating to increase the
accuracy of the results. That doesn't contribute to understanding
anything, or if it does in some minor way, whatever that understanding
is can be developed in other ways.
Some of it may have to do with personal inclination - I have always been
fascinated with both puzzles in general and with knowing how things work; in
my first job - just before the introduction of desktop calculators - I had
to learn how to use a slide rule and was thought it was a fantastic
invention.
Yes, I earned my nerd status with a little plastic slide rule that was
always in my shirt pocket, I think even before high school. (No pocket-
protector though.) But again a great example---a good slide rule
could 'do logarithms' to 3-4 decimal places sometimes, which was more
than enough. A current parallel might be students learning 4 ways to
'solve' quadratic equations or find trigonometric solutions when their
$12 calculator can do it in an instant.
When I was in high school physics, my teacher had a race where he'd use
a slide rule and we'd use our calculators to try to get the same answer.
He won every time. I used both a calculator and a slide rule. I had
a programmable calculator and it was more fun to use, but the slide rule
was pretty nifty and I enjoyed using it. <sigh> Where can you find one
now? And can you find a graphing slide rule? ;)
Well, I still have two - a Dietzgen log-log decitrig and a
Pickett dual-base speed rule, both 10". But I use my HP 15C
quite a bit more often than either... ;-)
|
I still have my father's Dietzgen drawing compass set from about 60
years ago (another quality product that has no demand, having been
replaced by computer printing these days), but I broke the cursor on my
Pickett slide rule lost its cursor a number of months before I spent
$50.00 on my first four function calculator. |
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Daniel Kolle
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 9:56 am Post subject: Re: Not Just the US With Education Problems |
|
|
On Wed, 4 Jun 2008 11:27:19 +0100, "alwaysaskingquestions"
<alwaysaskingquestions@gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7435023.stm
The British are uniquely happy to admit being bad at maths, says a report.
Why is that and how can attitudes change?
Imagine a famous television presenter joking that they couldn't read.
It's an unlikely scenario, such would be their embarrassment, yet no such
reservations exist for mathematics, with self-confessed innumerates popping
up regularly.
|
Indeed. I was never any good at English -- I barely learned the
alphabet!
| Quote: |
"I've always been rubbish at maths" is usually accompanied by a cheeky grin.
The subtext is "I'm no boffin."
A report this week by think-tank Reform laments the drop in numbers of
people taking maths A-level, at an estimated cost to the economy of £9bn.
"The UK remains one of the few advanced nations where it is socially
acceptable, fashionable even, to profess an inability to cope with maths,"
it says, despite a maths A-level putting on average an extra £10,000 a year
on a salary.
|
--
Daniel "Mister Brevity" Kolle
A.A. #2035
.. |
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Martin Kaletsch
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 11:01 am Post subject: Re: Not Just the US With Education Problems |
|
|
Vernon Balbert wrote:
| Quote: |
On 6/6/2008 4:38 AM, tgdenning@earthlink.net went clickity clack on the
keyboard and produced this interesting bit of text:
Yes, I earned my nerd status with a little plastic slide rule that was
always in my shirt pocket, I think even before high school. (No pocket-
protector though.) But again a great example---a good slide rule
could 'do logarithms' to 3-4 decimal places sometimes, which was more
than enough. A current parallel might be students learning 4 ways to
'solve' quadratic equations or find trigonometric solutions when their
$12 calculator can do it in an instant.
When I was in high school physics, my teacher had a race where he'd use
a slide rule and we'd use our calculators to try to get the same answer.
He won every time.
|
When I was at the University (some time after slide rules died out) we had a
professor who liked to play a similar game, we calculated the electron
energies (for example) of the hydrogen atom with our calculators while he
did an approximation in his head, without looking up the constants. He
usually was faster and his answers were quite close to the exact values.
--
Martin Kaletsch
"It was the laugh of the Elder Gods observing their creature man and noting
their omissions, miscalculations and mistakes." Fritz Leiber |
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Paul J Gans
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 10:33 pm Post subject: Re: Not Just the US With Education Problems |
|
|
Walter Bushell <proto@xxx.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
In article <6ask8qF38sc6eU1@mid.individual.net>,
"alwaysaskingquestions" <alwaysaskingquestions@gmail.com> wrote:
Some of it may have to do with personal inclination - I have always been
fascinated with both puzzles in general and with knowing how things work; in
my first job - just before the introduction of desktop calculators - I had
to learn how to use a slide rule and was thought it was a fantastic
invention.
Just how old are you. Frieden calculators from the styling my predate
WWII and maybe I.
|
The Friden calculator was in major use up through 1970. I recall
doing the calculations for a paper on one in that year.
Fridens had 10 digit keyboards and the high end models could
automatically extract square roots of 20 digit numbers.
See <http://www.oldcalculatormuseum.com/fridenstw.html> for
a view of a late model.
The mechanical calculator is arguably the finest example of the
mechanical engineer's art. They were enormously complex
instruments powered by an electric motor. The insides were
a three dimensional mass of gears, levers, cams, and whatnots.
The reference above shows some "inside" shots.
The pocket calculator killed them off fairly quickly.
--
--- Paul J. Gans |
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Paul J Gans
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 12:23 am Post subject: Re: Not Just the US With Education Problems |
|
|
Walter Bushell <proto@xxx.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
In article <g2f2bi$87q$4@reader2.panix.com>,
Paul J Gans <gans@panix.com> wrote:
Walter Bushell <proto@xxx.com> wrote:
In article <6ask8qF38sc6eU1@mid.individual.net>,
"alwaysaskingquestions" <alwaysaskingquestions@gmail.com> wrote:
Some of it may have to do with personal inclination - I have always been
fascinated with both puzzles in general and with knowing how things work;
in
my first job - just before the introduction of desktop calculators - I had
to learn how to use a slide rule and was thought it was a fantastic
invention.
Just how old are you. Frieden calculators from the styling my predate
WWII and maybe I.
The Friden calculator was in major use up through 1970. I recall
doing the calculations for a paper on one in that year.
I did a least squares fit in 1967 on one. I think it took a week or two.
Fridens had 10 digit keyboards and the high end models could
automatically extract square roots of 20 digit numbers.
See <http://www.oldcalculatormuseum.com/fridenstw.html> for
a view of a late model.
The mechanical calculator is arguably the finest example of the
mechanical engineer's art. They were enormously complex
instruments powered by an electric motor. The insides were
a three dimensional mass of gears, levers, cams, and whatnots.
The reference above shows some "inside" shots.
The pocket calculator killed them off fairly quickly.
Cheaper, faster and smaller will win every time. Not to mention quieter.
Also, they quickly became more capable.
|
Yup. They killed off base 10 logs too.
--
--- Paul J. Gans |
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Tim Norfolk
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 12:53 am Post subject: Re: Not Just the US With Education Problems |
|
|
On Jun 7, 8:23�pm, Paul J Gans <g...@panix.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
Walter Bushell <pr...@xxx.com> wrote:
In article <g2f2bi$87...@reader2.panix.com>,
Paul J Gans <g...@panix.com> wrote:
Walter Bushell <pr...@xxx.com> wrote:
In article <6ask8qF38sc6...@mid.individual.net>,
"alwaysaskingquestions" <alwaysaskingquesti...@gmail.com> wrote:
Some of it may have to do with personal inclination - I have always been
fascinated with both puzzles in general and with knowing how things work;
in
my first job - just before the introduction of desktop calculators - I had
to learn how to use a slide rule and was thought it was a fantastic
invention.
Just how old are you. Frieden calculators from the styling my predate
WWII and maybe I.
The Friden calculator was in major use up through 1970. �I recall
doing the calculations for a paper on one in that year.
I did a least squares fit in 1967 on one. I think it took a week or two.
Fridens had 10 digit keyboards and the high end models could
automatically extract square roots of 20 digit numbers.
See <http://www.oldcalculatormuseum.com/fridenstw.html> for
a view of a late model.
The mechanical calculator is arguably the finest example of the
mechanical engineer's art. �They were enormously complex
instruments powered by an electric motor. �The insides were
a three dimensional mass of gears, levers, cams, and whatnots.
The reference above shows some "inside" shots.
The pocket calculator killed them off fairly quickly.
Cheaper, faster and smaller will win every time. Not to mention quieter.
Also, they quickly became more capable.
Yup. �They killed off base 10 logs too.
--
� �--- Paul J. Gans- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
|
And, without doing logs with tables or slide rules, and all the fun of
interpolation, the students reaching Calculus II and Differential
Equations now have no clue about size estimates, or how logarithmic
differentiation works, or how the standard exponential growth model
works. |
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Bob Casanova
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 3:29 am Post subject: Re: Not Just the US With Education Problems |
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|
On Fri, 06 Jun 2008 18:44:44 -0400, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by "Robert J. Kolker"
<bobkolker@comcast.net>:
| Quote: |
Bob Casanova wrote:
Well, no...but most audiophools sling the term around, as do
newsmen with "Richter Scale", even if they have no idea what
it means. But point taken.
Anyone who does an order of magnitude estimate is using logarithms.
|
The same could be said for anyone who uses SI multipliers,
but that's an artifact of the fact that logs (base 10,
anyway), like magnitudes and SI multipliers, are also powers
of 10. But one needn't know anything at all about logs to
use magnitudes or SI units.
--
Bob C.
"Evidence confirming an observation is
evidence that the observation is wrong."
- McNameless |
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Bob Casanova
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 3:36 am Post subject: Re: Not Just the US With Education Problems |
|
|
On Fri, 06 Jun 2008 17:55:59 -0500, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by Free Lunch
<lunch@nofreelunch.us>:
| Quote: |
On Fri, 06 Jun 2008 15:35:14 -0700, Bob Casanova <nospam@buzz.off
wrote:
On Fri, 06 Jun 2008 12:24:12 -0700, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by Vernon Balbert
vbalbert@gmail.nospam.com>:
|
<snip>
| Quote: |
When I was in high school physics, my teacher had a race where he'd use
a slide rule and we'd use our calculators to try to get the same answer.
He won every time. I used both a calculator and a slide rule. I had
a programmable calculator and it was more fun to use, but the slide rule
was pretty nifty and I enjoyed using it. <sigh> Where can you find one
now? And can you find a graphing slide rule? ;)
Well, I still have two - a Dietzgen log-log decitrig and a
Pickett dual-base speed rule, both 10". But I use my HP 15C
quite a bit more often than either... ;-)
I still have my father's Dietzgen drawing compass set from about 60
years ago (another quality product that has no demand, having been
replaced by computer printing these days), but I broke the cursor on my
Pickett slide rule lost its cursor a number of months before I spent
$50.00 on my first four function calculator.
|
Yeah, my Dietzgen rule is still in excellent shape, but the
Pickett's lettering has faded significantly, even in dark
storage. I also have a number of drafting instruments (read:
"historical curiosities") by Dietzgen, Staedtler, Mars and
K&E; I even still have a "Varipoint" lead pointer
(sharpener) for my drafting leadholders and a "bunny bag".
Maybe I'll check eBay for collector interest...
--
Bob C.
"Evidence confirming an observation is
evidence that the observation is wrong."
- McNameless |
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Walter Bushell
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 4:19 am Post subject: Re: Not Just the US With Education Problems |
|
|
In article <g2f2bi$87q$4@reader2.panix.com>,
Paul J Gans <gans@panix.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
Walter Bushell <proto@xxx.com> wrote:
In article <6ask8qF38sc6eU1@mid.individual.net>,
"alwaysaskingquestions" <alwaysaskingquestions@gmail.com> wrote:
Some of it may have to do with personal inclination - I have always been
fascinated with both puzzles in general and with knowing how things work;
in
my first job - just before the introduction of desktop calculators - I had
to learn how to use a slide rule and was thought it was a fantastic
invention.
Just how old are you. Frieden calculators from the styling my predate
WWII and maybe I.
The Friden calculator was in major use up through 1970. I recall
doing the calculations for a paper on one in that year.
|
I did a least squares fit in 1967 on one. I think it took a week or two.
| Quote: |
Fridens had 10 digit keyboards and the high end models could
automatically extract square roots of 20 digit numbers.
See <http://www.oldcalculatormuseum.com/fridenstw.html> for
a view of a late model.
The mechanical calculator is arguably the finest example of the
mechanical engineer's art. They were enormously complex
instruments powered by an electric motor. The insides were
a three dimensional mass of gears, levers, cams, and whatnots.
The reference above shows some "inside" shots.
The pocket calculator killed them off fairly quickly.
|
Cheaper, faster and smaller will win every time. Not to mention quieter.
Also, they quickly became more capable.
--
What is done in the heat of battle is (normatively) judged
by different standards than what is leisurely planned in
comfortable conference rooms. |
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Robert J. Kolker
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 6:09 am Post subject: Re: Not Just the US With Education Problems |
|
|
Walter Bushell wrote:
| Quote: |
Just how old are you. Frieden calculators from the styling my predate
WWII and maybe I.
|
The Freiden all electromechanic twelve digit calculator goes back to the
middle 30s at least. Watch the thing multiply is a gasser. The carriage
skips one place at a time so it is really doing addition and shifting.
Likewise, division is substraction and shifting. When electronic
calculators (as they were first called) came along the shifting was all
electronic in registers, but the principle was identical.
My pop was a CPA and he had Frieden calculators in the office but he
would not let me use them until I became proficient at good old paper
and pencil addition, substraction, multiplication and division. Once he
was satisfied I could do accurate order of magnitude estimates he let me
use the machinery.
I also had a Kuder calculator, a German made mechanical job. It was
cylindrical and portions rotated. So the register was really a circular
gear track and it was moved by twisting the top of the device. I always
thought of it as a pepper mill that could do arithmetic. I wish I had
kept it. It would be worth over a thousand dollars as a collectors item.
Once battery or photoelectric hand calculators became inexpensive it was
the end of mechanical calculators and slide rules. Slide rules were in
heavy use in the 60's and were mostly gone by the 80's.
Bob Kolker |
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Robert J. Kolker
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 6:10 am Post subject: Re: Not Just the US With Education Problems |
|
|
Paul J Gans wrote:
| Quote: |
The mechanical calculator is arguably the finest example of the
mechanical engineer's art. They were enormously complex
instruments powered by an electric motor. The insides were
a three dimensional mass of gears, levers, cams, and whatnots.
The reference above shows some "inside" shots.
|
Babbage's engine finally realized.
Bob Kolker |
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Robert J. Kolker
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 6:13 am Post subject: Re: Not Just the US With Education Problems |
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|
Bob Casanova wrote:
| Quote: |
Yeah, my Dietzgen rule is still in excellent shape, but the
Pickett's lettering has faded significantly, even in dark
storage. I also have a number of drafting instruments (read:
"historical curiosities") by Dietzgen, Staedtler, Mars and
K&E; I even still have a "Varipoint" lead pointer
(sharpener) for my drafting leadholders and a "bunny bag".
Maybe I'll check eBay for collector interest...
|
Don't forget the K and E sliderules. There were a joy to use. The slid
effortlessy and could be placed in a very precise manner. The Picketts
and the Dietzgens were also excellent. In a way I miss a calculating
device who principle of operation was completely visible. No magic stuff
occuring under the hood, so to speak. I reget not having saved my old
slide rules. In good condition they command a good price as collectables.
Bob Kolker |
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