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Paul Ciszek
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 Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 2:50 am Post subject: Re: OT: No more 13-year-old girls in my harem |
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In article <1ihz7yx.1lgky33u4f8m4N@de-ster.xs4all.nl>,
J. J. Lodder <jjlxa31@xs4all.nl> wrote:
| Quote: |
Apart from the disgust:
it's the most succesful pyramid game
in human history. [1]
Old men get lots of young girls to breed lots of kiddies.
You would think this would rob young men of partners,
but no, since there is permanently
a huge population growth in the sect
there will be lots of fresh young girls
for them to exploit by the time they are middle aged.
(and it's their turn)
|
No, they kick out most of boys, some as young as 14 or 15.
I think Texas should have been charging these families with
neglect (for kicking out minor boys) and refused to return
the other children to them on that basis. (The way child
abuse laws work, even if only neglect or abuse *some* of your
children, you don't get to keep *any* of them.)
--
Please reply to: | President Bush is promoting Peace and Democracy
pciszek at panix dot com | in the Middle East by selling Weapons to the
Autoreply is disabled | King of Saudi Arabia. |
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Bob Casanova
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| Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 6:04 am Post subject: Re: OT: No more 13-year-old girls in my harem |
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|
On Tue, 3 Jun 2008 21:59:13 +0200, the following appeared in
talk.origins, posted by nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J.
Lodder):
| Quote: |
dali_70 <w_e_coyote12@hotmail.com> wrote:
So they went from a horrendously disgusting practice, of marrying off
underage girls to
much older men, without any choice (for the girl) in the whole matter.
To be one of who knows how many wives/baby factories to waiting until
they are of legal age before they violate the civil liberties of these
young women, forcing them to marry some old fart with 6 wives and 50
kids. How progressive of them.
Apart from the disgust:
it's the most succesful pyramid game
in human history. [1]
Old men get lots of young girls to breed lots of kiddies.
You would think this would rob young men of partners,
but no, since there is permanently
a huge population growth in the sect
there will be lots of fresh young girls
for them to exploit by the time they are middle aged.
(and it's their turn)
And it works:
the mormans went from hundreds to millions
in little more than a century and a half.
(doubling time about ten years)
Another hundred years of this
and they will take over the USA
by being the majority,
|
Actually, most of the Mormon "fundies" (such as those in
Colorado City AZ and the recently-in-the-news polygamous
ranch community in Texas) practice male-child exile, and the
local population doesn't increase much, if at all, faster
than the general population.
--
Bob C.
"Evidence confirming an observation is
evidence that the observation is wrong."
- McNameless |
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alwaysaskingquestions
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| Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 11:01 am Post subject: POTM Nomination (Was Re: OT: No more 13-year-old girls in my |
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|
"The Selfish Gene" meets Jerry Springer ;)
===============================
"Puppet_Sock" <puppet_sock@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:d0b5b647-dcff-4835-9b5e-890aa5ba6b2b@25g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: |
On Jun 3, 11:43 am, dali_70 <w_e_coyot...@hotmail.com> wrote:
So they went from a horrendously disgusting practice, of marrying off
underage girls to
much older men, without any choice (for the girl) in the whole matter.
To be one of who knows how many wives/baby factories to waiting until
they are of legal age before they violate the civil liberties of these
young women, forcing them to marry some old fart with 6 wives and 50
kids. How progressive of them.
Presumption of a situation not in evidence, namely that they are
forced.
Long winded post alert.
I know a guy. He has fathered (in the biological sense only) children
with 8 different women. Each of these women, in order from second to
the latest, has known about the previous women, and that he was
not giving them anything in support, and that he cheated on each of
the ones before her, and that in fact he was cheating on one of
the previous women with her. Cripes, they held little conventions
where they discussed every sordid detail. They talked about getting
a team jacket.
Yet, all eight of these women had unprotected sex with him,
and kept the kids, even though all of them were entirely fine
with the idea of abortion. Some of them as many as three times.
Gotta wonder about that. Can it be that there is something of an
evolutionary force at work here? Consider that this guy has about
twenty children.
Consider chimps. According to a nature show (I know, I know, but
the story is plausible) young male chimps seek female attention
by demonstrating what good father material they are. They pester
a mother chimp till she lets them babysit. Then they make a big
show of caring for the baby. But doing so generally means the
baby gets all happy, so gets quiet. And a quiet baby isn't much
of a show. So the young bachelor chimp wil pinch the baby till
it cries, then make a big show of comforting baby.
The thing is, this works. And the bigger thing is, it works almost
as well when chimp-boy gets caught as when he does not.
Seems that female chimps have a genetic interest in a male
with a strategy that will get him laid a lot, meaning their male
offspring will get laid a lot, producing lots of grandkids for her.
Consider cats. A male cat that finds a kitten under a certain age
will maul the kitten till it dies. Won't usually eat it, just kill it.
The idea is that mother cat, if she loses her kittens, will be
receptive to bachelor cat's advances much sooner. And since
male cats are usually fairly mobile, they rarely wind up killing
their own kittens.
And this works. At least, it out performs the males who don't
kill kittens.
One wonders what rationalizations might go through a female
cat's mind, were she abstractly that complicated as to be able
to form rationalizations and articulate them. Why does "kitten
breath" form an attractant to recently bereaved momma cat?
Again, she has a genetic interest in picking males with a
strategy that gets them laid a lot, leaving lots of kittens.
It means her male kittens will get laid a lot, leaving her
with lots of grand-kittens in the following generation.
Of course, she tries to hide her own kittens from the plan,
but once they are gone, it is evidence he's a "fit" mate.
Ok, enough wool.
From a purely evolutionary point of view, a guy with 50 kids is
fair attractive as a biological father. Hey, his genes are nearly
their own demographic. If that went on for three or four generations
his offspring would fill entire regions. From a purely genetic view
point, this has to be an enticement.
Socks
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Walter Bushell
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 6:29 am Post subject: Re: OT: No more 13-year-old girls in my harem |
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In article <1ii06u1.us3rrwtb0h7fN@de-ster.xs4all.nl>,
nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) wrote:
| Quote: |
Paul Ciszek <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
In article <1ihz7yx.1lgky33u4f8m4N@de-ster.xs4all.nl>,
J. J. Lodder <jjlxa31@xs4all.nl> wrote:
Apart from the disgust:
it's the most succesful pyramid game
in human history. [1]
Old men get lots of young girls to breed lots of kiddies.
You would think this would rob young men of partners,
but no, since there is permanently
a huge population growth in the sect
there will be lots of fresh young girls
for them to exploit by the time they are middle aged.
(and it's their turn)
No, they kick out most of boys, some as young as 14 or 15.
The pyramid can't grow fast enough to accomodate them all.
There must be losers in every pyramid game.
That doesn't invalidate the notion
that it is basically a pyramid game,
Jan
|
The United States is a pyramid scheme; have you looked at a one dollar
bill lately?
--
What is done in the heat of battle is (normatively) judged
by different standards than what is leisurely planned in
comfortable conference rooms. |
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Vend
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 7:47 am Post subject: Re: OT: No more 13-year-old girls in my harem |
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|
On 5 Giu, 01:42, Bob Casanova <nos...@buzz.off> wrote:
| Quote: |
On Wed, 4 Jun 2008 11:46:05 -0700 (PDT), the following
appeared in talk.origins, posted by Vend
ven...@virgilio.it>:
On 4 Giu, 19:58, nmp <addr...@is.invalid> wrote:
Vend wrote:
They might sell it as a pyramid scheme, but as any other pyramid schemes
it's a scam.
Since their population can't grow exponentially for an indefinite time,
the only way to substain that model is to kick out young males.
This, of course, is routine in all species that are socially organized in
male dominated harem groups. Whether they are lions, hippos, buffalo or
Mormons.
The young males often end up in "bachelor groups" where the ambitious
ones will try to find allies for fighting themselves back into a family
group, replacing the patriarch of the day.
That selects for the most aggressive males.
Perhaps in the early, mostly anarcho-capitalist, US that might have
worked well.
It certainly worked in feudal Europe and Asia until fairly
recently (historically speaking), and probably in Africa, so
I don't know why North America would be any different.
|
I don't think there were polygamic religions in feudal Europe.
| Quote: |
Not sure how fundamentalist Mormons have solved that problem...
--
Bob C.
"Evidence confirming an observation is
evidence that the observation is wrong."
- McNameless |
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Vend
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 7:53 am Post subject: Re: OT: No more 13-year-old girls in my harem |
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|
On 5 Giu, 01:19, nmp <addr...@is.invalid> wrote:
| Quote: |
Vend wrote:
On 4 Giu, 19:58, nmp <addr...@is.invalid> wrote:
Vend wrote:
They might sell it as a pyramid scheme, but as any other pyramid
schemes it's a scam.
Since their population can't grow exponentially for an indefinite
time, the only way to substain that model is to kick out young males.
This, of course, is routine in all species that are socially organized
in male dominated harem groups. Whether they are lions, hippos, buffalo
or Mormons.
The young males often end up in "bachelor groups" where the ambitious
ones will try to find allies for fighting themselves back into a family
group, replacing the patriarch of the day.
That selects for the most aggressive males.
Agressiveness, yes, but also intelligence and social skills. Allright,
perhaps not so much in hippos... They seem to rely more on mass and bad
attitude to decide who is boss.
Male lions often operate as brothers or even as completely unrelated
comrades. As long as they are not defending a pride, they are not
necessarily hostile with each other. Sometimes quite the contrary I have
read (homosexual friendship). When they do go out together, whoever wins
the alpha position in the pride will have to reward his trusted adjudants
with a good position too.
Perhaps in the early, mostly
anarcho-capitalist, US that might have worked well.
You mean around the time the Mormons got started? 
|
Yes. The early US was more a small government, laissez faire
capitalist society than it is now, and in many areas law enforcement
was probably sloppy. In that environment people who were aggressive,
either by brute force or by conning and manipulation, could have had
an advantage. |
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J. J. Lodder
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 11:01 am Post subject: Re: OT: No more 13-year-old girls in my harem |
|
|
Bob Casanova <nospam@buzz.off> wrote:
| Quote: |
On Wed, 4 Jun 2008 11:46:05 -0700 (PDT), the following
appeared in talk.origins, posted by Vend
vend82@virgilio.it>:
On 4 Giu, 19:58, nmp <addr...@is.invalid> wrote:
Vend wrote:
They might sell it as a pyramid scheme, but as any other pyramid schemes
it's a scam.
Since their population can't grow exponentially for an indefinite time,
the only way to substain that model is to kick out young males.
This, of course, is routine in all species that are socially organized in
male dominated harem groups. Whether they are lions, hippos, buffalo or
Mormons.
The young males often end up in "bachelor groups" where the ambitious
ones will try to find allies for fighting themselves back into a family
group, replacing the patriarch of the day.
That selects for the most aggressive males.
Perhaps in the early, mostly anarcho-capitalist, US that might have
worked well.
It certainly worked in feudal Europe and Asia until fairly
recently (historically speaking), and probably in Africa, so
I don't know why North America would be any different.
|
It is unlikely that this selection has caused any evolution,
on the historical timescale,
Jan |
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J. J. Lodder
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 11:01 am Post subject: Re: OT: No more 13-year-old girls in my harem |
|
|
Bob Casanova <nospam@buzz.off> wrote:
| Quote: |
On Tue, 3 Jun 2008 21:59:13 +0200, the following appeared in
talk.origins, posted by nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J.
Lodder):
dali_70 <w_e_coyote12@hotmail.com> wrote:
So they went from a horrendously disgusting practice, of marrying off
underage girls to
much older men, without any choice (for the girl) in the whole matter.
To be one of who knows how many wives/baby factories to waiting until
they are of legal age before they violate the civil liberties of these
young women, forcing them to marry some old fart with 6 wives and 50
kids. How progressive of them.
Apart from the disgust:
it's the most succesful pyramid game
in human history. [1]
Old men get lots of young girls to breed lots of kiddies.
You would think this would rob young men of partners,
but no, since there is permanently
a huge population growth in the sect
there will be lots of fresh young girls
for them to exploit by the time they are middle aged.
(and it's their turn)
And it works:
the mormans went from hundreds to millions
in little more than a century and a half.
(doubling time about ten years)
Another hundred years of this
and they will take over the USA
by being the majority,
Actually, most of the Mormon "fundies" (such as those in
Colorado City AZ and the recently-in-the-news polygamous
ranch community in Texas) practice male-child exile, and the
local population doesn't increase much, if at all, faster
than the general population.
|
Whoever does the fathering isn't important.
What matters ultimately is how many children
the average woman gets.
I was under the impression (but I may be mistaken)
that this is far above the national average,
for this kind of mormons.
It does help if this is the only thing
the women are allowed to do,
Jan |
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Paul J Gans
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| Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 2:46 am Post subject: Re: OT: No more 13-year-old girls in my harem |
|
|
Bob Casanova <nospam@buzz.off> wrote:
| Quote: |
On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 14:29:47 -0400, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by Walter Bushell <proto@xxx.com>:
In article
40a1ac1b-3c1b-455e-9bce-628e5c784a1e@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com>,
Vend <vend82@virgilio.it> wrote:
I don't think there were polygamic religions in feudal Europe.
But the knights would have sex with any woman found alone or without
protectors wether she wanted it or not.
Cite?
|
The assumption during the high middle ages was that the only
women who would be out and about all alone were women of ill
repute.
Of course peasants were not included in this caveat. Just
ladies of the nobility.
--
--- Paul J. Gans |
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Vend
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 7:21 am Post subject: Re: OT: No more 13-year-old girls in my harem |
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|
On 6 Giu, 03:22, j.wilki...@uq.edu.au (John Wilkins) wrote:
| Quote: |
louan...@yahoo.com <louan...@yahoo.com> wrote:
...
Louann, BA Eng Lit
Engineering has a literature?
|
The IEEE transactions. |
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J. J. Lodder
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 11:01 am Post subject: Re: OT: No more 13-year-old girls in my harem |
|
|
Bob Casanova <nospam@buzz.off> wrote:
| Quote: |
On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 10:38:17 +0200, the following appeared in
talk.origins, posted by nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J.
Lodder):
Bob Casanova <nospam@buzz.off> wrote:
On Wed, 4 Jun 2008 11:46:05 -0700 (PDT), the following
appeared in talk.origins, posted by Vend
vend82@virgilio.it>:
On 4 Giu, 19:58, nmp <addr...@is.invalid> wrote:
Vend wrote:
They might sell it as a pyramid scheme, but as any other pyramid
schemes it's a scam. Since their population can't grow
exponentially for an indefinite time, the only way to substain
that model is to kick out young males.
This, of course, is routine in all species that are socially
organized in male dominated harem groups. Whether they are lions,
hippos, buffalo or Mormons.
The young males often end up in "bachelor groups" where the
ambitious ones will try to find allies for fighting themselves back
into a family group, replacing the patriarch of the day.
That selects for the most aggressive males.
Perhaps in the early, mostly anarcho-capitalist, US that might have
worked well.
It certainly worked in feudal Europe and Asia until fairly
recently (historically speaking), and probably in Africa, so
I don't know why North America would be any different.
It is unlikely that this selection has caused any evolution,
on the historical timescale,
Agreed. So why your comment that it did?
|
Where did you think I said anything like that?
Jan |
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Bob Casanova
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| Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 3:14 am Post subject: Re: OT: No more 13-year-old girls in my harem |
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|
On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:08:27 -0700 (PDT), the following
appeared in talk.origins, posted by Vend
<vend82@virgilio.it>:
| Quote: |
On 5 Giu, 23:17, Bob Casanova <nos...@buzz.off> wrote:
On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 00:47:21 -0700 (PDT), the following
appeared in talk.origins, posted by Vend
ven...@virgilio.it>:
On 5 Giu, 01:42, Bob Casanova <nos...@buzz.off> wrote:
On Wed, 4 Jun 2008 11:46:05 -0700 (PDT), the following
appeared in talk.origins, posted by Vend
ven...@virgilio.it>:
On 4 Giu, 19:58, nmp <addr...@is.invalid> wrote:
Vend wrote:
They might sell it as a pyramid scheme, but as any other pyramid schemes
it's a scam.
Since their population can't grow exponentially for an indefinite time,
the only way to substain that model is to kick out young males.
This, of course, is routine in all species that are socially organized in
male dominated harem groups. Whether they are lions, hippos, buffalo or
Mormons.
The young males often end up in "bachelor groups" where the ambitious
ones will try to find allies for fighting themselves back into a family
group, replacing the patriarch of the day.
That selects for the most aggressive males.
Perhaps in the early, mostly anarcho-capitalist, US that might have
worked well.
It certainly worked in feudal Europe and Asia until fairly
recently (historically speaking), and probably in Africa, so
I don't know why North America would be any different.
I don't think there were polygamic religions in feudal Europe.
Ummm, I was addressing the question of selection for
aggression in general (as should have been obvious from the
comments preceding mine, since the early US also didn't
accept polygamous religions; Lodder just like to snipe),
which certainly *was* characteristic of feudal Europe.
Feudal Europe was surely a violent society in some aspects, but I
think it's violence was more a matter of angry mobs and government
punishment rather than individual competitiveness.
In fact, people were expected to be docile and obey their rulers
without question and without any realistic potential social mobility.
|
Those rulers didn't get into positions of power by being
passive.
| Quote: |
The early US was instead a capitalist society initially designed to
have as little government influence as possible.
|
Correct (mostly).
| Quote: |
Even law enforcement was a mostly private activity in some areas, as
echoed by the right to carry weapons in the constitution.
|
Nope. That was specifically intended as a counterweight to
the army (which was essentially nonexistent except in time
of war; intentionally so), and as a ready source of soldiers
when war threatened. Local police were the law enforcement
in all settled areas, and US police (marshals) in the
territories (after 1850 or so).
| Quote: |
In this society, individuals who were able to affirm themselves over
the other through any mean, legal or not, had perhaps a reproductive
advantage, or at least the meme of extreme competitiveness had
cultural advantage.
|
.....as it did for the Norman knights and many others who
practiced aggression in Europe, and enjoyed differential
reproductive success as a result (look up "droit du
seigneur" or "jus primae noctis").
--
Bob C.
"Evidence confirming an observation is
evidence that the observation is wrong."
- McNameless |
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Bob Casanova
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| Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 3:17 am Post subject: Re: OT: No more 13-year-old girls in my harem |
|
|
On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 16:36:47 -0700 (PDT), the following
appeared in talk.origins, posted by "louann_m@yahoo.com"
<louann_m@yahoo.com>:
| Quote: |
On Jun 5, 4:19 pm, Bob Casanova <nos...@buzz.off> wrote:
On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 14:29:47 -0400, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by Walter Bushell <pr...@xxx.com>:
In article
40a1ac1b-3c1b-455e-9bce-628e5c784...@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com>,
Vend <ven...@virgilio.it> wrote:
I don't think there were polygamic religions in feudal Europe.
But the knights would have sex with any woman found alone or without
protectors wether she wanted it or not.
Cite?
I remember being taught in college that Roman de la Rose (the medieval
definitive work on courtly love, romance, etc.) included the advice
that if a knight is interested in a peasant woman, don't try to court
her but just Do It. But I don't have a more specific cite without
putting a lot of work into research.
|
OK. It sounds like a direct violation of the creed of
chivalry (protect the weak), but given the fact that
peasants were considered essentially property under feudal
law I can see where it might be true.
| Quote: |
Louann, BA Eng Lit
|
So's my daughter; I had to make do with a BSEE... ;-)
--
Bob C.
"Evidence confirming an observation is
evidence that the observation is wrong."
- McNameless |
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Bob Casanova
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| Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 3:20 am Post subject: Re: OT: No more 13-year-old girls in my harem |
|
|
On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 11:22:17 +1000, the following appeared in
talk.origins, posted by j.wilkins1@uq.edu.au (John Wilkins):
| Quote: |
louann_m@yahoo.com <louann_m@yahoo.com> wrote:
...
Louann, BA Eng Lit
Engineering has a literature?
|
What, you've never read "Engineering Electromagnetism",
"Thermal Physics" or "Vector Mechanics for Engineers"?!?
Great plot work and thrilling suspense, but characterization
tends to be weak...
--
Bob C.
"Evidence confirming an observation is
evidence that the observation is wrong."
- McNameless |
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