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Bob Casanova
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 Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 3:20 am Post subject: Re: OT: No more 13-year-old girls in my harem |
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On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 02:46:58 +0000 (UTC), the following
appeared in talk.origins, posted by Paul J Gans
<gans@panix.com>:
| Quote: |
Bob Casanova <nospam@buzz.off> wrote:
On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 14:29:47 -0400, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by Walter Bushell <proto@xxx.com>:
In article
40a1ac1b-3c1b-455e-9bce-628e5c784a1e@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com>,
Vend <vend82@virgilio.it> wrote:
I don't think there were polygamic religions in feudal Europe.
But the knights would have sex with any woman found alone or without
protectors wether she wanted it or not.
Cite?
The assumption during the high middle ages was that the only
women who would be out and about all alone were women of ill
repute.
Of course peasants were not included in this caveat. Just
ladies of the nobility.
|
OK.
--
Bob C.
"Evidence confirming an observation is
evidence that the observation is wrong."
- McNameless |
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Bob Casanova
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| Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 3:23 am Post subject: Re: OT: No more 13-year-old girls in my harem |
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|
On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 10:28:58 +0200, the following appeared in
talk.origins, posted by nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J.
Lodder):
| Quote: |
Bob Casanova <nospam@buzz.off> wrote:
On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 10:38:17 +0200, the following appeared in
talk.origins, posted by nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J.
Lodder):
Bob Casanova <nospam@buzz.off> wrote:
On Wed, 4 Jun 2008 11:46:05 -0700 (PDT), the following
appeared in talk.origins, posted by Vend
vend82@virgilio.it>:
On 4 Giu, 19:58, nmp <addr...@is.invalid> wrote:
Vend wrote:
They might sell it as a pyramid scheme, but as any other pyramid
schemes it's a scam. Since their population can't grow
exponentially for an indefinite time, the only way to substain
that model is to kick out young males.
This, of course, is routine in all species that are socially
organized in male dominated harem groups. Whether they are lions,
hippos, buffalo or Mormons.
The young males often end up in "bachelor groups" where the
ambitious ones will try to find allies for fighting themselves back
into a family group, replacing the patriarch of the day.
That selects for the most aggressive males.
Perhaps in the early, mostly anarcho-capitalist, US that might have
worked well.
It certainly worked in feudal Europe and Asia until fairly
recently (historically speaking), and probably in Africa, so
I don't know why North America would be any different.
It is unlikely that this selection has caused any evolution,
on the historical timescale,
Agreed. So why your comment that it did?
Where did you think I said anything like that?
|
About 5 responses up from here. Quote:
| Quote: |
That selects for the most aggressive males.
Perhaps in the early, mostly anarcho-capitalist, US that might have
worked well.
|
"...worked well." sort of implies successful selection.
--
Bob C.
"Evidence confirming an observation is
evidence that the observation is wrong."
- McNameless |
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Vernon Balbert
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| Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 4:23 am Post subject: Re: OT: No more 13-year-old girls in my harem |
|
|
On 6/6/2008 3:20 PM, Bob Casanova went clickity clack on the keyboard
and produced this interesting bit of text:
| Quote: |
On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 11:22:17 +1000, the following appeared in
talk.origins, posted by j.wilkins1@uq.edu.au (John Wilkins):
louann_m@yahoo.com <louann_m@yahoo.com> wrote:
...
Louann, BA Eng Lit
Engineering has a literature?
What, you've never read "Engineering Electromagnetism",
"Thermal Physics" or "Vector Mechanics for Engineers"?!?
Great plot work and thrilling suspense, but characterization
tends to be weak...
|
If you want great characterization, read the phone book. Not much of a
plot, though.
--
The opening scene of the movie "Saving Private Ryan" is loosely based on
games of dodge ball Chuck Norris played in second grade. |
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Vend
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 8:22 am Post subject: Re: OT: No more 13-year-old girls in my harem |
|
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On 7 Giu, 00:14, Bob Casanova <nos...@buzz.off> wrote:
| Quote: |
On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:08:27 -0700 (PDT), the following
appeared in talk.origins, posted by Vend
ven...@virgilio.it>:
On 5 Giu, 23:17, Bob Casanova <nos...@buzz.off> wrote:
On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 00:47:21 -0700 (PDT), the following
appeared in talk.origins, posted by Vend
ven...@virgilio.it>:
On 5 Giu, 01:42, Bob Casanova <nos...@buzz.off> wrote:
On Wed, 4 Jun 2008 11:46:05 -0700 (PDT), the following
appeared in talk.origins, posted by Vend
ven...@virgilio.it>:
On 4 Giu, 19:58, nmp <addr...@is.invalid> wrote:
Vend wrote:
They might sell it as a pyramid scheme, but as any other pyramid schemes
it's a scam.
Since their population can't grow exponentially for an indefinite time,
the only way to substain that model is to kick out young males.
This, of course, is routine in all species that are socially organized in
male dominated harem groups. Whether they are lions, hippos, buffalo or
Mormons.
The young males often end up in "bachelor groups" where the ambitious
ones will try to find allies for fighting themselves back into a family
group, replacing the patriarch of the day.
That selects for the most aggressive males.
Perhaps in the early, mostly anarcho-capitalist, US that might have
worked well.
It certainly worked in feudal Europe and Asia until fairly
recently (historically speaking), and probably in Africa, so
I don't know why North America would be any different.
I don't think there were polygamic religions in feudal Europe.
Ummm, I was addressing the question of selection for
aggression in general (as should have been obvious from the
comments preceding mine, since the early US also didn't
accept polygamous religions; Lodder just like to snipe),
which certainly *was* characteristic of feudal Europe.
Feudal Europe was surely a violent society in some aspects, but I
think it's violence was more a matter of angry mobs and government
punishment rather than individual competitiveness.
In fact, people were expected to be docile and obey their rulers
without question and without any realistic potential social mobility.
Those rulers didn't get into positions of power by being
passive.
|
Most of them get into positions of power by being descendants of
previous rulers.
Although occasionally some peasants managed to ascend to power
position, upwards social mobility was generally very low.
| Quote: |
The early US was instead a capitalist society initially designed to
have as little government influence as possible.
Correct (mostly).
Even law enforcement was a mostly private activity in some areas, as
echoed by the right to carry weapons in the constitution.
Nope. That was specifically intended as a counterweight to
the army (which was essentially nonexistent except in time
of war; intentionally so), and as a ready source of soldiers
when war threatened.
|
Well, that was the formal reasonale.
| Quote: |
Local police were the law enforcement
in all settled areas, and US police (marshals) in the
territories (after 1850 or so).
|
Of course there was formal, and is some areas actual, law enforcement.
However, in some areas and at some times, actual law enforcement was
quite ineffective.
I'm referring for instance to the American Old West, with its
widespread crime and corruption and occasional range wars between
peasants.
| Quote: |
In this society, individuals who were able to affirm themselves over
the other through any mean, legal or not, had perhaps a reproductive
advantage, or at least the meme of extreme competitiveness had
cultural advantage.
....as it did for the Norman knights and many others who
practiced aggression in Europe, and enjoyed differential
reproductive success as a result (look up "droit du
seigneur" or "jus primae noctis").
|
It's believed that the right of local lords to deflower virgins never
existed in the middle age.
Anyway, feudal Europe was a violent and aggressive society, but the
exercise of that aggressivity was mostly restricted to a minority of
people who had an hereditary right to do it or to impersonal hysteric
mobs.
Aggressivity as a mean to move upwards in the social ladder was not
allowed to most people. |
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J. J. Lodder
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| Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 11:01 am Post subject: Re: OT: No more 13-year-old girls in my harem |
|
|
Vend <vend82@virgilio.it> wrote:
| Quote: |
On 7 Giu, 00:14, Bob Casanova <nos...@buzz.off> wrote:
On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:08:27 -0700 (PDT), the following
appeared in talk.origins, posted by Vend
ven...@virgilio.it>:
On 5 Giu, 23:17, Bob Casanova <nos...@buzz.off> wrote:
On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 00:47:21 -0700 (PDT), the following
appeared in talk.origins, posted by Vend
ven...@virgilio.it>:
I don't think there were polygamic religions in feudal Europe.
Ummm, I was addressing the question of selection for
aggression in general (as should have been obvious from the
comments preceding mine, since the early US also didn't
accept polygamous religions; Lodder just like to snipe),
which certainly *was* characteristic of feudal Europe.
Feudal Europe was surely a violent society in some aspects, but I
think it's violence was more a matter of angry mobs and government
punishment rather than individual competitiveness.
In fact, people were expected to be docile and obey their rulers
without question and without any realistic potential social mobility.
Those rulers didn't get into positions of power by being
passive.
Most of them get into positions of power by being descendants of
previous rulers.
|
That's precisely where harem systems tend to be at a disadvantage,
by producing too many potential claimants.
The result tends to be intrigue, murder, and at worst civil war.
| Quote: |
Although occasionally some peasants managed to ascend to power
position, upwards social mobility was generally very low.
|
Worse than that, it was usually negative.
The priviledged produced more kiddies on average than the poor,
and the population and production couldn't grow, so...
| Quote: |
....as it did for the Norman knights and many others who
practiced aggression in Europe, and enjoyed differential
reproductive success as a result (look up "droit du
seigneur" or "jus primae noctis").
It's believed that the right of local lords to deflower virgins never
existed in the middle age.
|
It may have been praticed though, at some times and places.
The church was of course very much against it.
Jan |
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J. J. Lodder
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 11:01 am Post subject: Re: OT: No more 13-year-old girls in my harem |
|
|
Josh Hayes <joshno@spamblarg.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
Walter Bushell <proto@xxx.com> wrote in news:proto-34D285.21294504062008@
70-1-84-166.area1.spcsdns.net:
The United States is a pyramid scheme; have you looked at a one dollar
bill lately?
Not much point; you can't buy anything with one.
|
About 66 eurocents,
Jan |
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J. J. Lodder
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| Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 11:01 am Post subject: Re: OT: No more 13-year-old girls in my harem |
|
|
Bob Casanova <nospam@buzz.off> wrote:
| Quote: |
On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 10:28:58 +0200, the following appeared in
talk.origins, posted by nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J.
Lodder):
Bob Casanova <nospam@buzz.off> wrote:
On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 10:38:17 +0200, the following appeared in
talk.origins, posted by nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J.
Lodder):
Bob Casanova <nospam@buzz.off> wrote:
On Wed, 4 Jun 2008 11:46:05 -0700 (PDT), the following
appeared in talk.origins, posted by Vend
vend82@virgilio.it>:
On 4 Giu, 19:58, nmp <addr...@is.invalid> wrote:
Vend wrote:
They might sell it as a pyramid scheme, but as any other pyramid
schemes it's a scam. Since their population can't grow
exponentially for an indefinite time, the only way to substain
that model is to kick out young males.
This, of course, is routine in all species that are socially
organized in male dominated harem groups. Whether they are lions,
hippos, buffalo or Mormons.
The young males often end up in "bachelor groups" where the
ambitious ones will try to find allies for fighting themselves back
into a family group, replacing the patriarch of the day.
That selects for the most aggressive males.
Perhaps in the early, mostly anarcho-capitalist, US that might have
worked well.
It certainly worked in feudal Europe and Asia until fairly
recently (historically speaking), and probably in Africa, so
I don't know why North America would be any different.
It is unlikely that this selection has caused any evolution,
on the historical timescale,
Agreed. So why your comment that it did?
Where did you think I said anything like that?
About 5 responses up from here. Quote:
That selects for the most aggressive males.
Perhaps in the early, mostly anarcho-capitalist, US that might have
worked well.
"...worked well." sort of implies successful selection.
|
Quite right, except that it isn't anything I wrote,
Jan |
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Josh Hayes
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 11:01 am Post subject: Re: OT: No more 13-year-old girls in my harem |
|
|
Walter Bushell <proto@xxx.com> wrote in news:proto-34D285.21294504062008@
70-1-84-166.area1.spcsdns.net:
| Quote: |
The United States is a pyramid scheme; have you looked at a one dollar
bill lately?
|
Not much point; you can't buy anything with one.
-JAH
Lo, how the wealthy are fallen |
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Michael Siemon
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| Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 11:01 am Post subject: Re: OT: No more 13-year-old girls in my harem |
|
|
In article <Xns9AB5F0DA8B634joshblargnet@216.168.3.44>,
Josh Hayes <joshno@spamblarg.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
Walter Bushell <proto@xxx.com> wrote in news:proto-34D285.21294504062008@
70-1-84-166.area1.spcsdns.net:
The United States is a pyramid scheme; have you looked at a one dollar
bill lately?
Not much point; you can't buy anything with one.
-JAH
Lo, how the wealthy are fallen
|
Hey; the dollar is worth every bit as much now as a dime was when
I was a kid! (Really; current Consumer Price Index in 1980 dollars
is 215, versus 21.5 in 1947.)
"Brother, can you spare a half-eagle?"
[How many of you wet-behind-the-ears kids know what a half-eagle is?] |
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Paul J Gans
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 10:18 pm Post subject: Re: OT: No more 13-year-old girls in my harem |
|
|
Josh Hayes <joshno@spamblarg.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
Walter Bushell <proto@xxx.com> wrote in news:proto-34D285.21294504062008@
70-1-84-166.area1.spcsdns.net:
The United States is a pyramid scheme; have you looked at a one dollar
bill lately?
Not much point; you can't buy anything with one.
|
Sure you can. You can buy 100 pennies, the copper content
of which is worth $1.06.
We live in a strange country.
--
--- Paul J. Gans |
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Bob Casanova
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 3:16 am Post subject: Re: OT: No more 13-year-old girls in my harem |
|
|
On Fri, 06 Jun 2008 16:23:18 -0700, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by Vernon Balbert
<vbalbert@gmail.nospam.com>:
| Quote: |
On 6/6/2008 3:20 PM, Bob Casanova went clickity clack on the keyboard
and produced this interesting bit of text:
On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 11:22:17 +1000, the following appeared in
talk.origins, posted by j.wilkins1@uq.edu.au (John Wilkins):
louann_m@yahoo.com <louann_m@yahoo.com> wrote:
...
Louann, BA Eng Lit
Engineering has a literature?
What, you've never read "Engineering Electromagnetism",
"Thermal Physics" or "Vector Mechanics for Engineers"?!?
Great plot work and thrilling suspense, but characterization
tends to be weak...
If you want great characterization, read the phone book. Not much of a
plot, though.
|
Actually, I'd say "a great cast" rather than "great
characterization" (other than the Yellow Pages)...
--
Bob C.
"Evidence confirming an observation is
evidence that the observation is wrong."
- McNameless |
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Bob Casanova
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 3:18 am Post subject: Re: OT: No more 13-year-old girls in my harem |
|
|
On Sat, 07 Jun 2008 01:40:38 -0500, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by Josh Hayes
<joshno@spamblarg.net>:
| Quote: |
Walter Bushell <proto@xxx.com> wrote in news:proto-34D285.21294504062008@
70-1-84-166.area1.spcsdns.net:
The United States is a pyramid scheme; have you looked at a one dollar
bill lately?
Not much point; you can't buy anything with one.
|
Hey, I can still buy a quart of gas with one. And with that,
a quart bottle and a rag... ;-)
--
Bob C.
"Evidence confirming an observation is
evidence that the observation is wrong."
- McNameless |
|
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Bob Casanova
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 3:20 am Post subject: Re: OT: No more 13-year-old girls in my harem |
|
|
On Sat, 07 Jun 2008 00:17:44 -0700, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by Michael Siemon
<mlsiemon@sonic.net>:
| Quote: |
In article <Xns9AB5F0DA8B634joshblargnet@216.168.3.44>,
Josh Hayes <joshno@spamblarg.net> wrote:
Walter Bushell <proto@xxx.com> wrote in news:proto-34D285.21294504062008@
70-1-84-166.area1.spcsdns.net:
The United States is a pyramid scheme; have you looked at a one dollar
bill lately?
Not much point; you can't buy anything with one.
-JAH
Lo, how the wealthy are fallen
Hey; the dollar is worth every bit as much now as a dime was when
I was a kid! (Really; current Consumer Price Index in 1980 dollars
is 215, versus 21.5 in 1947.)
"Brother, can you spare a half-eagle?"
[How many of you wet-behind-the-ears kids know what a half-eagle is?]
|
Well, I do. But are you claiming to have been familiar with
them as current coin? If so, grandfather, I'll respectfully
listen to anything you say, if you can stay awake to say it.
;-)
--
Bob C.
"Evidence confirming an observation is
evidence that the observation is wrong."
- McNameless |
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Bob Casanova
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 3:24 am Post subject: Re: OT: No more 13-year-old girls in my harem |
|
|
On Sat, 7 Jun 2008 09:32:15 +0200, the following appeared in
talk.origins, posted by nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J.
Lodder):
| Quote: |
Bob Casanova <nospam@buzz.off> wrote:
On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 10:28:58 +0200, the following appeared in
talk.origins, posted by nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J.
Lodder):
Bob Casanova <nospam@buzz.off> wrote:
On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 10:38:17 +0200, the following appeared in
talk.origins, posted by nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J.
Lodder):
Bob Casanova <nospam@buzz.off> wrote:
On Wed, 4 Jun 2008 11:46:05 -0700 (PDT), the following
appeared in talk.origins, posted by Vend
vend82@virgilio.it>:
On 4 Giu, 19:58, nmp <addr...@is.invalid> wrote:
Vend wrote:
They might sell it as a pyramid scheme, but as any other pyramid
schemes it's a scam. Since their population can't grow
exponentially for an indefinite time, the only way to substain
that model is to kick out young males.
This, of course, is routine in all species that are socially
organized in male dominated harem groups. Whether they are lions,
hippos, buffalo or Mormons.
The young males often end up in "bachelor groups" where the
ambitious ones will try to find allies for fighting themselves back
into a family group, replacing the patriarch of the day.
That selects for the most aggressive males.
Perhaps in the early, mostly anarcho-capitalist, US that might have
worked well.
It certainly worked in feudal Europe and Asia until fairly
recently (historically speaking), and probably in Africa, so
I don't know why North America would be any different.
It is unlikely that this selection has caused any evolution,
on the historical timescale,
Agreed. So why your comment that it did?
Where did you think I said anything like that?
About 5 responses up from here. Quote:
That selects for the most aggressive males.
Perhaps in the early, mostly anarcho-capitalist, US that might have
worked well.
"...worked well." sort of implies successful selection.
Quite right, except that it isn't anything I wrote,
|
Oops, you're quite correct; brain fart here. My humble
apologies.
*Damn*, it pisses me off when I make a mistake like that...
--
Bob C.
"Evidence confirming an observation is
evidence that the observation is wrong."
- McNameless |
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Vernon Balbert
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 3:51 am Post subject: Re: OT: No more 13-year-old girls in my harem |
|
|
On 6/7/2008 3:16 PM, Bob Casanova went clickity clack on the keyboard
and produced this interesting bit of text:
| Quote: |
On Fri, 06 Jun 2008 16:23:18 -0700, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by Vernon Balbert
vbalbert@gmail.nospam.com>:
On 6/6/2008 3:20 PM, Bob Casanova went clickity clack on the keyboard
and produced this interesting bit of text:
On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 11:22:17 +1000, the following appeared in
talk.origins, posted by j.wilkins1@uq.edu.au (John Wilkins):
louann_m@yahoo.com <louann_m@yahoo.com> wrote:
...
Louann, BA Eng Lit
Engineering has a literature?
What, you've never read "Engineering Electromagnetism",
"Thermal Physics" or "Vector Mechanics for Engineers"?!?
Great plot work and thrilling suspense, but characterization
tends to be weak...
If you want great characterization, read the phone book. Not much of a
plot, though.
Actually, I'd say "a great cast" rather than "great
characterization" (other than the Yellow Pages)...
|
Granted. :)
--
Rule of Acquisition number 202: The justification for profit is profit. |
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