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AC
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 Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 3:47 am Post subject: Re: the nazis banned darwin and upheld christian literature |
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On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 14:05:49 -0700 (PDT),
Glenn <GlennSheldon@msn.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
On Mar 17, 10:59 am, AC <mightymartia...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 10:37:39 -0700 (PDT),
wf3h <w...@vsswireless.net> wrote:
On Mar 17, 12:51 pm, AC <mightymartia...@gmail.com> wrote:
wf3h <w...@vsswireless.net> wrote:
Do you have any evidence that Glenn's an anti-Semite. I've sparred with him
for years, and I have yet to see him ever illicit anything at all like that.
i think denial of xtian complicity in creating antisemitism is a 'sin
of omission'...it's a form of holocaust denial where one admits that
the shoah happened, but says xtianity had nothing to do with it. it's
an attempt to make xtianity a victim rather than a kind of co-
conspirator. that makes it a form of antisemitism.
Oh, i see, so you're just going to invent positions for Glenn to hold
i see you know little about history. ever hear of the KKK member who
tells us 'some of his best friends are black'?
I think I know plenty about history. And this is clearly an attempt to damn
by association. This is no different than Glenn's assertion that Hitler's
alleged Social Darwinism was the root of the Holocaust.
AC, I haven't made such an silly assertion that anything was "the
root" of the Holocaust, let alone a single reason being the cause. A
combination of economic conditions, anti-semitism, terrorism, greed,
fear, deception, you name it, all contributed to the outcome.
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I won't argue with that. But Social Darwinism, on the face of it, must
surely be, if at all, one of the lesser causes. The anti-Semitism that the
Nazis trumpeted had been around for centuries, sometimes strong, sometimes
weak. Economics, political policies and theories, racial ideas, Nordic
identity, all of these were grist for the Nazi, but without that strong vein
of hatred and fear of Jews, I don't see how or even why the Nazis would have
felt the need to round up and eventually murder millions of Jews. Hitler
blamed the Jews and Communists for the defeat in WWI, and he was far from
the first to, during some bad times (perceived and/or real) to point at the
Jews. They had been scapegoats for centuries.
| Quote: |
I'm not
sure that had anti-semitism not been a reality or issue at all, that
the outcome would have been different, however I do not hold the
position that anti-semitism did not play a role in the events that led
to the Holocaust.
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The Holocaust, while involving Communists, Gypsies, homosexuals, Jehovah's
Witnesses and an assortment of other individuals and groups that the Nazis
needed to either demonize or, for more mundane purposes (like terrorizing
elements of the populace who might be inclined not to be big fans of Hitler,
Nazis, foreign policy or any of the enlightened dictates of the Nazi Party),
was overwhelmingly a Jewish tragedy.
| Quote: |
Nor have I tried to cover or deny Christian anti-
semitism. But anti-semitism is no different in these respects than
Social Darwinism.
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It's considerably different. Social Darwinism is very modern (from the
latter half of the 19th century). Anti-Semitism, or in particular,
Christian anti-Semitism seems to have its roots right near the beginning of
Christianity.
| Quote: |
Social Darwinism was just as real and did play a
part in the Holocaust.
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What part is that, in particular? I mean, Social Darwinism was in vogue in
many countries, and I don't recall any of them rounding up their Jews and
sticking them in gas chambers. Hell, my native turf (Canada) had its own
dalliance with Social Darwinism, involving the forced sterilization of those
deemed inferior (generally the mentally handicapped and the mentally ill),
but that's not the same thing at all. I'll agree that the Nazis also
partook of that, but I don't think that explains the particular and peculiar
targeting of European Jewry, which clearly echoes the historical
anti-Semitism. Hitler wasn't the first when to espouse the idea of getting
rid of European Jewry, but he did inherit a complex and effective civil
service and the technology to do what they could never do.
| Quote: |
I consider your implication that Social
Darwinism is only alleged to have had a part, to be revisionism.
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I'd like you to detail precisely what Social Darwinism did here.
| Quote: |
A
piece of Nazi literature in the mid 1930's banning "primitive
Darwinism" and "monism" certainly does not place Social Darwinism's
role in doubt, nor does it mean that the Nazi's "banned Darwin" or
banned or burned any specific book, or did not tolerate any books or
expressed ideas relating to Darwin or Social Darwinism, whether banned
or not. Similarly, not banning Christian literature does not evidence
that the Nazis tolerated all Christian literature, and is not evidence
that Hitler or the Nazi party were inclined to accept any Christian
literature for any purpose other than to deceive.
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This latter part does what you so often despise, and that's try to get into
the head's of the Nazi leadership. I'll agree that Hitler and Himmler had
some pretty strange ideas that probably would take them outside the camp of
Christians, but the Nazis had a great deal of support from both leading
Lutherans and Catholics, and there's simply no way around it. A lot of
Christians in Germany, Occupied France, occupied Austria and Hungary had
absolutely no problem with the Nazi campaign against the Jews.
The Nazi leadership may have been completely cynical, but it doesn't matter,
because it wasn't the Nazi leadership building gas chambers and ovens,
running the railways that lead to the concentration camps, running the
government bureaucracy involved in the Holocaust, or the Germans who gained
the property taken from the Jews.
I have long maintained I have absolutely no problem saying Hitler wasn't a
Christian (though he invoked God frequently and seemed to hold a peculiar
form of Teutonic Creationism). It really is irrelevant, because he wasn't
the first major German figure who espoused the abuse and destruction of
European Jewry (Martin Luther, celebrated by Protestants far and wide, had
some delightful things to say about Jews that the Nazis eagerly put to use),
and it wasn't Hitler, Himmler or any of that bunch that was rounding up and
ultimately killing Jews.
| Quote: |
It is certainly a
fact that Social Darwinist policies were carried out and that both
Protestant and Catholic Churches and many Christians were compromised,
terrorized, persecuted and murdered as well, and also that had Hitler
prevailed in his insanity, that Christians and the Churches would not
have escaped his rage, and I for one seriously doubt that "Christian
literature" would not have been immune, and was not immune.
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I think you're intentionally overinflating the importance of Social
Darwinism, while simultaneously trying to reduce the importance of
Christendom's nearly two thousand years of hatred and abuse of Jews.
--
Aaron Clausen mightymartianca@gmail.com
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AC
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| Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 4:09 am Post subject: Re: the nazis banned darwin and upheld christian literature |
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On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 15:04:13 -0700 (PDT),
wf3h <wf3h@vsswireless.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
On Mar 17, 1:59 pm, AC <mightymartia...@gmail.com> wrote:
wf3h <w...@vsswireless.net> wrote:
On Mar 17, 12:51 pm, AC <mightymartia...@gmail.com> wrote:
i think denial of xtian complicity in creating antisemitism is a 'sin
of omission'...it's a form of holocaust denial where one admits that
the shoah happened, but says xtianity had nothing to do with it. it's
an attempt to make xtianity a victim rather than a kind of co-
conspirator. that makes it a form of antisemitism.
I think I know plenty about history. And this is clearly an attempt to damn
by association. This is no different than Glenn's assertion that Hitler's
alleged Social Darwinism was the root of the Holocaust.
EXACTLY my point. thank you.
|
Not really, because you then go on to accuse Glenn of anti-Semitism. I
think he's wrong about the influence of Social Darwinism on the Holocaust,
and is probably trying to minimize Christianity's part in the tragedy, but
that's not anti-Semitism.
| Quote: |
it's hardly a unique feature of xtian antisemites believe that it's
not possible that xtianit was complicit in the shoah simply because
xtianity is good. it's the 'no true scotsman' fallacy.
Um, Christian anti-semites tend to think that the harassing and killing Jews
is a religiously-sanctioned activity. They don't tend to shift blame,
because they don't think there's anything blameworthy.
there is not one 'antisemitism'. it exists in a host of forms. of
course, some xtians try to shift blame because they think xtianity is
unfairly accused of antisemitism.
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And here we go with you happily redefining words.
Anti-Semitism is specifically anti-Jewish beliefs and sentiments. Glenn has
never, so far as I am ever aware, espoused any such views. I refuse to
allow you to just simply redefine a very concretely-defined concept simply
so you can try to bully your way to some sort of rhetorical victory.
Glenn and I don't like each other. We tend to get rather ugly towards each
other, but goddamn it, he's not anti-Semite. I can think of a dozen vulgar
nasty things I could call him off the top of my head, but I will not
tolerate some little shit like you calling someone probably one of the most
serious and severe epithets of our modern age.
| Quote: |
trying to whitewash xtian history, while shoving the blame for
antisemitism onto science is, in and of itself, a form of antisemitism
since it denies the role that xtianity played in creating
antisemitism.
It's an attempt to rewrite history. It certainly isn't anti-Semitism.
why not? one believes in an ideology he thinks is 'too good' to be
antisemitic and it leads to denial of the role of xtianity in
antisemitism. that's antisemitic.
|
It's not anti-Semitic because he's not saying anything against Jews. He's
not adopting a position of the inferiority or evils of Jewry. He's not
advocating any of the positions you'll find among anti-Semites. He's an
anti-evolutionist to be sure, but that is not hte same thing.
| Quote: |
You
may feel justified in redefining terms to win a debate, but I find it a
deplorable and dishonest tactic. Deal with what Glenn says, which is
questionable enough, it doesn't need ridiculous and over-the-top accusations
which require that you do a combination of mind-reading and redefinition to
make it work.
you say you know alot about history but seem to be unaware that many
antisemites simply deny the role of xtianity in the creation of
antisemitism. glenn's blameshifting is one such tactic.
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You don't even make any sense, for goodness sakes. Anti-semites don't think
hatred of Jews is wrong. It's the very core of the flippin' notion! A
Christian anti-Semite doesn't deny that Christianity played a role in
anti-Jewish sentiment, for goodness sake, he embraces the notion. To his
mind, anti-Semitism is a justified belief. Why would such a person deny
Christianity's role?
| Quote: |
Let's be clear here. Nowhere has Glenn ever denied that the Holocaust
occurred.
and where has he owned up to the fact that christians created modern
antisemitism? that they practiced it for a thousand years? that
evolution had nothing to do with it?
It's a wrong view, but not an anti-Semitic one.
wrong. absolutely wrong. it certainly IS antisemitic since it
exculpates those who've caused antisemitism while trying to shift the
blame.
|
No, absolutely right. You don't even know what you're talking about. Go
look into such infamous anti-Semite groups as the KKK, White Supremacists,
or even the slightly less virulent anti-Semitism espoused by certain groups
of Pentacostals.
And can you point to anyone who, while trying to minimize Christian
involvement in anti-Semitic beliefs, who has caused anti-Semitism to
increase. These people don't encourage any of the anti-Semitic beliefs,
they simply want to make Christianity look squeaky clean by minimizing
Christianity's involvement. They certainly don't encourage hatred of Jews,
often quite the opposite.
| Quote: |
i never said that hitler was a christian. glenn tried to pretend i DID
say that. both you and he need to be more clear on your expectations
about the role of christianity in the shoah. if he takes offense at
the facts, then let him tell us WHY the facts offend him. i have zip
to apologize for unless glenn can specifically tell us what it was
about the facts that offended him.
I think you're just as bad as he is, probably even worse.
fine. if you think there's only ONE form of antisemitism, you're
blissfully ignorant of history.
|
You have no idea what you're talking about, I'm afraid. You seem incredibly
ignorant of Christian anti-Semitism, but seem quite willing to play
dishonest rhetorical games.
--
Aaron Clausen mightymartianca@gmail.com
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Bob Casanova
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 5:18 am Post subject: Re: the nazis banned darwin and upheld christian literature |
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On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 09:15:24 -0700 (PDT), the following
appeared in talk.origins, posted by wf3h
<wf3h@vsswireless.net>:
| Quote: |
On Mar 17, 12:08 pm, AC <mightymartia...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 14 Mar 2008 19:59:52 -0700 (PDT),
wf3h <w...@vsswireless.net> wrote:
On Mar 14, 12:15 am, Glenn <GlennShel...@msn.com> wrote:
On Mar 13, 9:04 pm, RAM <RAMather...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mar 13, 10:53 pm, Glenn <GlennShel...@msn.com> wrote:
On Mar 13, 7:41 pm, RAM <RAMather...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mar 13, 9:17 pm, Glenn <GlennShel...@msn.com> wrote:
On Mar 12, 7:38 pm, wf3h <w...@vsswireless.net> wrote:
happened to be reading an article the other day about banned books in
nazi germany. creationists often assert that darwin was much beloved
of the nazis, and that evolution caused the shoah. however, at the
website:
http://www.library.arizona.edu/exhibits/burnedbooks/documents.htm
at arizona state university, we find a list of books and topics that
were banned by the nazis. this included:
Writings of a philosophical and social nature whose content deals with
the false scientific enlightenment of primitive Darwinism and Monism
(Häckel).
also interesting is the fact that, in spite of the fact that many
creationists think christian literature was burned by the nazis, the
opposite is true:
http://www.library.arizona.edu/exhibits/burnedbooks/documents.htm#her...
According to the principles governing the compilation of this list,
the following publications must be removed from public and commercial
lending libraries:
All writings that ridicule, belittle or besmirch the Christian
religion and its institution, faith in God, or other things that are
holy to the healthy sentiments of the Volk.
In other words, a certain upcoming leader claimed not to be a Social
Darwinist but a Christian, and 80 years later you still believe him.
They are not mutually exclusive and never were.
Try again.
In other words, a certain upcoming leader claimed not to be a Social
Darwinist and a Christian, and 80 years later you still believe him.
Slow learner are you. Or just ignorant of Social Darwinism?
Take your stupid attitude and shove it up your ass.-
says the jew hating creationist
Do you have any evidence that Glenn's an anti-Semite. I've sparred with him
for years, and I have yet to see him ever illicit anything at all like that.
--
i think denial of xtian complicity in creating antisemitism is a 'sin
of omission'...it's a form of holocaust denial where one admits that
the shoah happened, but says xtianity had nothing to do with it. it's
an attempt to make xtianity a victim rather than a kind of co-
conspirator. that makes it a form of antisemitism.
|
I'd say it's more guilt and embarrassment than antisemitism.
This type admits the Holocaust happened, but can't bear to
think that Christianity could have had anything to do with
it (despite almost a millennium of history during which
Christianity emphatically *did* have "something to do with
it"). It's denial, but not the denial of the revisionists
and Holocaust deniers; more the denial of a mother's "*My*
son could never do such a thing!". Just my 20 mills...
--
Bob C.
"Evidence confirming an observation is
evidence that the observation is wrong."
- McNameless |
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Bob Casanova
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 5:30 am Post subject: Re: the nazis banned darwin and upheld christian literature |
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On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 15:06:31 -0700 (PDT), the following
appeared in talk.origins, posted by wf3h
<wf3h@vsswireless.net>:
| Quote: |
On Mar 17, 3:47 pm, j.wilki...@uq.edu.au (John Wilkins) wrote:
I completely agree, but Bob has a tendency to overgeneralise and assign
guilt to believers for things they are not personally stating, a common
error.
so shifting the blame from xtianity to evolution isn't antisemitic?
|
Sure doesn't seem so to me. Consider that those who attempt
this are acknowledging that antisemitism exists *and that
they reject it* (else why try to shift the blame?) and are
attempting to distance themselves from it. Does that sound
like antisemitism, or does it sound like someone who feels
guilty about antisemitism in the past and embarrassed that
"his" religion could hold such a bigoted position, and
therefore tries to shift the blame elsewhere? I'd say the
latter, and I'd claim that far from being a form of
antisemitism it's an indication that the person involved
emphatically *rejects* antisemitism. Just IMHO, and YMMV.
<snip>
--
Bob C.
"Evidence confirming an observation is
evidence that the observation is wrong."
- McNameless |
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AC
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 9:57 am Post subject: Re: the nazis banned darwin and upheld christian literature |
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On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 18:49:12 -0700 (PDT),
wf3h <wf3h@vsswireless.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
On Mar 17, 8:30 pm, Bob Casanova <nos...@buzz.off> wrote:
On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 15:06:31 -0700 (PDT), the following
appeared in talk.origins, posted by wf3h
w...@vsswireless.net>:
On Mar 17, 3:47 pm, j.wilki...@uq.edu.au (John Wilkins) wrote:
I completely agree, but Bob has a tendency to overgeneralise and assign
guilt to believers for things they are not personally stating, a common
error.
so shifting the blame from xtianity to evolution isn't antisemitic?
Sure doesn't seem so to me. Consider that those who attempt
this are acknowledging that antisemitism exists *and that
they reject it* (else why try to shift the blame?)
there is a form of bigotry known as the bigotry of small expectations.
consider those fundies who think of jews as worker ants in god's
larger plan to bring christ's 2nd coming by rebuilding the temple. are
those xtians antisemitic? i think so. given xtianity's historical view
of jews, those xtians who have an exaggerated sense of their own
innocence, or of the jews' ignorance in 'god's plan' are practicing a
form of antisemitism. IMHO.
|
I'm sorry. What does any of this have to do with anything Glenn has posted?
Nowhere have I seen him espouse that position either. Now, not only are you
inventing racist beliefs for him to apparently have, but you're also giving
him a theology. Is Glenn Sheldon real, or is he some sort of voodoo doll
you own?
You're doing yourself no favors here. Not only have you invoked some
private definition of anti-Semitism which no one here (or anywhere so far as
I can tell) uses or even knows about, but now you have decided on the
particular set of beliefs that Glenn believes. You're tactics are
dishonest, pure and simple. You don't even have the decency to apologize
for the original slur, instead digging yourself even deeper.
--
Aaron Clausen mightymartianca@gmail.com
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AC
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 10:11 am Post subject: Re: the nazis banned darwin and upheld christian literature |
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On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 19:03:39 -0700 (PDT),
wf3h <wf3h@vsswireless.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
On Mar 17, 7:09 pm, AC <mightymartia...@gmail.com> wrote:
wf3h <w...@vsswireless.net> wrote:
On Mar 17, 1:59 pm, AC <mightymartia...@gmail.com> wrote:
I think I know plenty about history. And this is clearly an attempt to damn
by association. This is no different than Glenn's assertion that Hitler's
alleged Social Darwinism was the root of the Holocaust.
EXACTLY my point. thank you.
Not really, because you then go on to accuse Glenn of anti-Semitism.
?? when the austrians call themselves hitler's first victims, though
they participated wholeheartedly in the murder of the jews...are they
antisemitic? how about the poles who did likewise? yes, blameshifting
is a form of antisemitism.
|
I'm sorry. I'm not getting what this has to do with Glenn.
| Quote: |
I
think he's wrong about the influence of Social Darwinism on the Holocaust,
because he doesn't think xtianity is capable of creating antisemitism,
so it's GOTTA be someone else's fault.
|
That may very well be, but that doesn't make him an anti-Semite. It makes
him a self-deluded wishful thinker. Although I confess I haven't seen him
outright reject Christianity's role, he just attempts to minimize it in
favor of a rather modern movement which certainly can't explain the
historical anti-Semitism that was around a long time before someone abused
everyone's favorite evolutionary theorist's name to give weight to some
rather silly socio-economic ramblings.
| Quote: |
and is probably trying to minimize Christianity's part in the tragedy, but
that's not anti-Semitism.
why not?
|
Because that's not the definition of the term.
| Quote: |
if i tell someone else to kill my neighbor, and he does, am i
entitled to feign horror over the events? xtianity had the power...and
used it...to create a culture where jews wound up getting murdered by
the millions. why ISNT it antisemitic to deny that complicity?
|
Because attempting to minimize someone's involvement isn't the same as
denying the events happened. He's not encouraging anti-Semitism, quite the
opposite, I have personally seen Glenn attack anti-Semites.
| Quote: |
Um, Christian anti-semites tend to think that the harassing and killing Jews
is a religiously-sanctioned activity. They don't tend to shift blame,
because they don't think there's anything blameworthy.
there is not one 'antisemitism'. it exists in a host of forms. of
course, some xtians try to shift blame because they think xtianity is
unfairly accused of antisemitism.
And here we go with you happily redefining words.
Anti-Semitism is specifically anti-Jewish beliefs and sentiments. Glenn has
never, so far as I am ever aware, espoused any such views.
and i think he HAS. that's PRECISELY the point under discussion. it's
MY contention that someone who tries to blame shift is practicing a
form of antisemitism. those who deny the shoah are antisemites
|
I know what you're contending, but when you have to redefine an entire
concept to do it, it's a rhetorical game and nothing more.
| Quote: |
why aren't those who deny xtianity's complicity ALSO antisemites?
|
Because anti-semitism is the hatred and promotion of hatred of Jews. If you
can show me one single place where Glenn has done this, then we'll talk,
but this dishonest and spurious game of yours is making *you* look bad,
because you have unfairly slandered somebody, and you don't even have the
courage or the presence of mind to understand that. You instead keep
begging the question.
| Quote: |
what
makes the holocaust deniers antisemitic, while those who deny the
historical fact of xtianity's complicity NOT antisemitic?
|
Holocaust Deniers are espousing conspiracy theories that tend to involve
Jews and their cohorts inventing a mass murder for their own ends.
| Quote: |
I refuse to
allow you to just simply redefine a very concretely-defined concept simply
so you can try to bully your way to some sort of rhetorical victory.
your view of antisemitism simply does not comport with the historical
facts.
|
I want you to produce a single citation by any Holocaust or European
historian that uses the term "anti-Semite" in the way you're using it.
| Quote: |
trying to whitewash xtian history, while shoving the blame for
antisemitism onto science is, in and of itself, a form of antisemitism
since it denies the role that xtianity played in creating
antisemitism.
It's an attempt to rewrite history. It certainly isn't anti-Semitism.
why not? one believes in an ideology he thinks is 'too good' to be
antisemitic and it leads to denial of the role of xtianity in
antisemitism. that's antisemitic.
It's not anti-Semitic because he's not saying anything against Jews.
nor, of course, do the holocaust deniers.
|
I don't know how to respond to this kind of nonsense. Do you think such a
blatant and obvious lie helps you at all?
| Quote: |
He's
not adopting a position of the inferiority or evils of Jewry. He's not
advocating any of the positions you'll find among anti-Semites. He's an
anti-evolutionist to be sure, but that is not hte same thing.
being an anti evolutionist is not necessarily antisemitic.
saying that evolution caused the shoah, while xtianity had a minor
role IS antisemitic for the same reason being a holocaust denier is.
|
Not by any definition I've seen, but you're welcome to produce some
citations.
| Quote: |
you say you know alot about history but seem to be unaware that many
antisemites simply deny the role of xtianity in the creation of
antisemitism. glenn's blameshifting is one such tactic.
You don't even make any sense, for goodness sakes. Anti-semites don't think
hatred of Jews is wrong.
and, again, there are many ways to express hatred. someone who denies
the existence of the shoah, though never expressing hatred of
jews...is that antisemitism?
|
You're just making this up, and what's worse, you think I'm idiot enough to
buy it. Do you think I"m some sort of half-wit? I mean, asking me to
accept this kind of crapola is truly insulting.
| Quote: |
It's the very core of the flippin' notion! A
Christian anti-Semite doesn't deny that Christianity played a role in
anti-Jewish sentiment, for goodness sake, he embraces the notion. To his
mind, anti-Semitism is a justified belief. Why would such a person deny
Christianity's role?
and there are many forms of bigotry. how about the slaveowner who
loves his slaves, but 'knows' blacks are just too stupid to live on
their own. is he a bigot? sure he is. he doesn't have to hate
blacks...
|
You see, here you go, invoking things that have nothing to do with anything
Glenn has ever said.
| Quote: |
and where has he owned up to the fact that christians created modern
antisemitism? that they practiced it for a thousand years? that
evolution had nothing to do with it?
It's a wrong view, but not an anti-Semitic one.
wrong. absolutely wrong. it certainly IS antisemitic since it
exculpates those who've caused antisemitism while trying to shift the
blame.
No, absolutely right. You don't even know what you're talking about. Go
look into such infamous anti-Semite groups as the KKK, White Supremacists,
or even the slightly less virulent anti-Semitism espoused by certain groups
of Pentacostals.
you've obviously never read the proslavery literature where the
slaveowners thought they were doing god's work by taking care of the
poor, stupid blacks. they were doing the blacks a favor, so they
thought...loving them...showing them god's will. no hatred there.
|
This has nothing to do with anything Glenn has said, and precious little to
do with anti-Semitism.
| Quote: |
but certainly it was racism
And can you point to anyone who, while trying to minimize Christian
involvement in anti-Semitic beliefs, who has caused anti-Semitism to
increase. These people don't encourage any of the anti-Semitic beliefs,
they simply want to make Christianity look squeaky clean by minimizing
Christianity's involvement. They certainly don't encourage hatred of Jews,
often quite the opposite.
and what, then, do they say to the jews and others who say 'j'accuse'
to xtianity? what's the difference between them and the holocaust
deniers?
|
We're going in circles here. You have a private definition. No one uses it
the way you seem to think they do. Anti-semitism is not a confusing term.
| Quote: |
fine. if you think there's only ONE form of antisemitism, you're
blissfully ignorant of history.
You have no idea what you're talking about, I'm afraid. You seem incredibly
ignorant of Christian anti-Semitism, but seem quite willing to play
dishonest rhetorical games.
meaningless. lacking historical substance...you're obviously winging
it.
|
Considering some of the crap you've written right in this post, all I can
say is pot... kettle... black.
--
Aaron Clausen mightymartianca@gmail.com
fnor |
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wf3h
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 10:33 am Post subject: Re: the nazis banned darwin and upheld christian literature |
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On Mar 18, 12:57 am, AC <mightymartia...@gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
wf3h <w...@vsswireless.net> wrote:
there is a form of bigotry known as the bigotry of small expectations.
consider those fundies who think of jews as worker ants in god's
larger plan to bring christ's 2nd coming by rebuilding the temple. are
those xtians antisemitic? i think so. given xtianity's historical view
of jews, those xtians who have an exaggerated sense of their own
innocence, or of the jews' ignorance in 'god's plan' are practicing a
form of antisemitism. IMHO.
I'm sorry. What does any of this have to do with anything Glenn has posted?
|
again...he's tried to shift the blame for the formation of
antisemitism from xtianity to evolution.
| Quote: |
You're doing yourself no favors here. Not only have you invoked some
private definition of anti-Semitism which no one here (or anywhere so far as
I can tell) uses or even knows about,
|
and, again you seem to ignore the fact there are many forms of
bigotry. the preacher who tells us 'how much he loves the jewish
people' while patronizing them is also a bigot. it's hardly a
'private definition' of bigotry
but now you have decided on the
| Quote: |
particular set of beliefs that Glenn believes. You're tactics are
dishonest, pure and simple. You don't even have the decency to apologize
for the original slur, instead digging yourself even deeper.
|
i can't help it you think there's only the bigotry of hatred. you're
welcome to your singular, unwarranted concept of bigotry. but the fact
is, it exists in many forms. |
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wf3h
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| Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 10:45 am Post subject: Re: the nazis banned darwin and upheld christian literature |
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On Mar 18, 2:30 am, Mark VandeWettering <wetter...@attbi.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
On 2008-03-18, wf3h <w...@vsswireless.net> wrote:
?? when the austrians call themselves hitler's first victims, though
they participated wholeheartedly in the murder of the jews...are they
antisemitic? how about the poles who did likewise? yes, blameshifting
is a form of antisemitism.
I'm hardly the person to defend Glenn, but even I must admit that
you are casting your nets a bit broadly to try to snare him with the
label of antisemite. He may be mistaken about.. well, very nearly
everything, but I don't see any indication that Glenn is shifting blame
away from anyone: he's just hypothesizing a rather curious cause for the
Holocaust, while downplaying another particular cause.
|
'downplaying another cause' is to excuse the main factor in the rise
of antisemitism. that is a form of bigotry.
| Quote: |
I
think he's wrong about the influence of Social Darwinism on the Holocaust,
As do I.
because he doesn't think xtianity is capable of creating antisemitism,
so it's GOTTA be someone else's fault.
I don't think that Glenn has made that argument either. He is claiming
that there is some other underlying _cause_. I think that's deluded as
well, but it's not the same as saying that the Jews deserved what they
got,
|
you don't have to HATE someone to be a bigot. if you think all blacks
are stupid, that's bigotry. if you think all jews are financial
geniuses, that's a form of bigotry. it exists in many, many forms.
shifting the blame for antisemitism away from its root cause is a form
of bigotry.
| Quote: |
and is probably trying to minimize Christianity's part in the tragedy, but
that's not anti-Semitism.
why not? if i tell someone else to kill my neighbor, and he does, am i
entitled to feign horror over the events? xtianity had the power...and
used it...to create a culture where jews wound up getting murdered by
the millions. why ISNT it antisemitic to deny that complicity?
The situation that caused the Holocaust was rather more complicated than
you, (or Glenn for that matter) are trying to paint here. Any attempt
to lay blame to a single cause, or which fails to recognize gradations
in the culpability of the people involved is not likely to be a very
accurate portrayal of what happened or its root causes.
|
and the idea that bigotry involves ONLY hatred is a simplistic view of
bigotry. many slaveowners thought they were doing god's own work by
christianizing the poor, helpless, stupid slaves they owned. they
loved their slaves...so they said. but they were still bigots.
| Quote: |
Anti-Semitism is specifically anti-Jewish beliefs and sentiments. Glenn has
never, so far as I am ever aware, espoused any such views.
and i think he HAS. that's PRECISELY the point under discussion. it's
MY contention that someone who tries to blame shift is practicing a
form of antisemitism.
IMO, Glenn _is_ praciticing a type of denial: a denial that the group
which he self-associates was not responsible for the Holocaust.
|
there are many creationists who are not idiots. they are perfectly
aware that xtianity played the key role in antisemitism. but they
prefer to revise history. that's why the term 'revisionism' was
invented. revisionism...holocaust denial, for example, is a form of
bigotry.
| Quote: |
why aren't those who deny xtianity's complicity ALSO antisemites? what
makes the holocaust deniers antisemitic, while those who deny the
historical fact of xtianity's complicity NOT antisemitic?
Again, I think Glenn's argument is that such people weren't really
Christians.
|
i agree he says that. the slaveowner who says another slaveowner who
beats his slaves, while the former 'christianizes' his slaves...is he
a bigot? certainly he is.
I personally think that's a silly argument to make: they
| Quote: |
certainly called themselves such, and were identified as such by their
churches. But I think if the word antisemitism is to mean anything,
there has to be a degree of malice involved, and frankly, I don't think
Glenn has any malice towards Jews. He may be deluded, but I think it
carries no malice.
|
bigotry does NOT have to involve malice at all.
| Quote: |
I refuse to
allow you to just simply redefine a very concretely-defined concept simply
so you can try to bully your way to some sort of rhetorical victory.
your view of antisemitism simply does not comport with the historical
facts.
I too, am curious as to this definition of antisemitism. I don't think
it's very consistent with the historic use of the term. Wikipedia
defines it as prejudice and hostility toward Jews.
|
prejudice does not necessarily involve malice. if i think arabs are
too stupid to have invented a fascist theology, and therefore george
bush was responsible for 9-11, is that bigotry towards arabs? yes, it
is.
I don't think that
| Quote: |
Glenn has given anyone any cause to believe that he harbors any such
animosity. Wikipedia goes on to list four types of antisemitism which
Catholic (gasp!) historian Edward Flannery recognized, and several other
types, such as the opposition to the state of Israel. Again, I know of
no reason to believe that these categories apply to Glenn. Wikipedia
lists Helen Fein as defining antisemitism as "a persisting latent
structure of hostile beliefs towards Jews as a collective manifested in
individuals as attitudes, and in culture as myth, ideology, folklore and
imagery, and in actions -- social or legal discrimination, political
mobilization against the Jews, and collective or state violence -- which
results in and/or is designed to distance, displace, or destroy Jews as
Jews." I dont think that applies either, do you?
|
except again and again we see many forms of bigotry which do not
involve overt hostility. thinking blacks are stupid, or that jews are
money grubbers is bigotry. thinking the irish are
alcoholics...stereotyping...is a form of bigotry.
| Quote: |
trying to whitewash xtian history, while shoving the blame for
antisemitism onto science is, in and of itself, a form of antisemitism
since it denies the role that xtianity played in creating
antisemitism.
It's an attempt to rewrite history. It certainly isn't anti-Semitism.
why not? one believes in an ideology he thinks is 'too good' to be
antisemitic and it leads to denial of the role of xtianity in
antisemitism. that's antisemitic.
It's not anti-Semitic because he's not saying anything against Jews.
nor, of course, do the holocaust deniers.
Of course they do. Ultimately, they claim that the Holocaust was a lie
perpetrated by Jews to further their own notorious ends.
|
and there are some holocaust deniers who think the whole think was
'overblown' in the same way glenn thinks xtianity played a 'minor'
role in the shoah. |
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wf3h
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| Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 10:56 am Post subject: Re: the nazis banned darwin and upheld christian literature |
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|
On Mar 18, 1:11 am, AC <mightymartia...@gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
wf3h <w...@vsswireless.net> wrote:
On Mar 17, 7:09 pm, AC <mightymartia...@gmail.com> wrote:
?? when the austrians call themselves hitler's first victims, though
they participated wholeheartedly in the murder of the jews...are they
antisemitic? how about the poles who did likewise? yes, blameshifting
is a form of antisemitism.
I'm sorry. I'm not getting what this has to do with Glenn.
|
because bigotry does NOT have to involve malice. blameshifting, like
holocaust denial, is a form of bigotry against jews.
| Quote: |
if i tell someone else to kill my neighbor, and he does, am i
entitled to feign horror over the events? xtianity had the power...and
used it...to create a culture where jews wound up getting murdered by
the millions. why ISNT it antisemitic to deny that complicity?
Because attempting to minimize someone's involvement isn't the same as
denying the events happened. He's not encouraging anti-Semitism, quite the
opposite, I have personally seen Glenn attack anti-Semites.
|
and when the catholic church condemns those who murder gays, all the
while telling us that being homosexual is 'gravely morally
disordered', are they being homophobic?
| Quote: |
and i think he HAS. that's PRECISELY the point under discussion. it's
MY contention that someone who tries to blame shift is practicing a
form of antisemitism. those who deny the shoah are antisemites
I know what you're contending, but when you have to redefine an entire
concept to do it, it's a rhetorical game and nothing more.
|
YOU have redefined the concept of bigotry to necessarily incorporate
malice. bigotry does NOT have to involve malice or hatred at all.
that's why the catholic church practices bigotry against gays. they do
not HATE gays but they ARE bigoted against them.
| Quote: |
why aren't those who deny xtianity's complicity ALSO antisemites?
Because anti-semitism is the hatred and promotion of hatred of Jews
|
and the catholic church promotes hatred against gays even though it
does not hate gays. saying xtians were not responsible for
antisemitism certainly leads one to question why the jews who wrote
'dabru emet' would say such a terrible thing about the christian
religion, doesn't it?
| Quote: |
your view of antisemitism simply does not comport with the historical
facts.
I want you to produce a single citation by any Holocaust or European
historian that uses the term "anti-Semite" in the way you're using it.
|
and if you can find a single gay who tells us how much the catholic
church loves homosexuals, i'll agree that i'm wrong and you're right.
| Quote: |
and there are many forms of bigotry. how about the slaveowner who
loves his slaves, but 'knows' blacks are just too stupid to live on
their own. is he a bigot? sure he is. he doesn't have to hate
blacks...
You see, here you go, invoking things that have nothing to do with anything
Glenn has ever said.
|
are you denying he's said that evolution was a major factor in
antisemitism, while xtianity played a relatively minor role? |
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Mark VandeWettering
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 11:21 am Post subject: Re: the nazis banned darwin and upheld christian literature |
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|
On 2008-03-18, wf3h <wf3h@vsswireless.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
On Mar 17, 7:09 pm, AC <mightymartia...@gmail.com> wrote:
wf3h <w...@vsswireless.net> wrote:
On Mar 17, 1:59 pm, AC <mightymartia...@gmail.com> wrote:
I think I know plenty about history. And this is clearly an attempt to damn
by association. This is no different than Glenn's assertion that Hitler's
alleged Social Darwinism was the root of the Holocaust.
EXACTLY my point. thank you.
Not really, because you then go on to accuse Glenn of anti-Semitism.
?? when the austrians call themselves hitler's first victims, though
they participated wholeheartedly in the murder of the jews...are they
antisemitic? how about the poles who did likewise? yes, blameshifting
is a form of antisemitism.
|
I'm hardly the person to defend Glenn, but even I must admit that
you are casting your nets a bit broadly to try to snare him with the
label of antisemite. He may be mistaken about.. well, very nearly
everything, but I don't see any indication that Glenn is shifting blame
away from anyone: he's just hypothesizing a rather curious cause for the
Holocaust, while downplaying another particular cause.
| Quote: |
I
think he's wrong about the influence of Social Darwinism on the Holocaust,
|
As do I.
| Quote: |
because he doesn't think xtianity is capable of creating antisemitism,
so it's GOTTA be someone else's fault.
|
I don't think that Glenn has made that argument either. He is claiming
that there is some other underlying _cause_. I think that's deluded as
well, but it's not the same as saying that the Jews deserved what they
got, or that somebody other than the people responsible for the Holocaust
were responsible. He's basically claiming that the people who claimed
they were Christians weren't "really" Christians, that they were corrupted
by evolutionary ideals. I think that's a laughable idea, but it doesn't
harbor malice: it's basically designed to make him feel better about
the group with which he self-identifies.
| Quote: |
and is probably trying to minimize Christianity's part in the tragedy, but
that's not anti-Semitism.
why not? if i tell someone else to kill my neighbor, and he does, am i
entitled to feign horror over the events? xtianity had the power...and
used it...to create a culture where jews wound up getting murdered by
the millions. why ISNT it antisemitic to deny that complicity?
|
The situation that caused the Holocaust was rather more complicated than
you, (or Glenn for that matter) are trying to paint here. Any attempt
to lay blame to a single cause, or which fails to recognize gradations
in the culpability of the people involved is not likely to be a very
accurate portrayal of what happened or its root causes.
| Quote: |
Um, Christian anti-semites tend to think that the harassing and killing Jews
is a religiously-sanctioned activity. They don't tend to shift blame,
because they don't think there's anything blameworthy.
there is not one 'antisemitism'. it exists in a host of forms. of
course, some xtians try to shift blame because they think xtianity is
unfairly accused of antisemitism.
And here we go with you happily redefining words.
Anti-Semitism is specifically anti-Jewish beliefs and sentiments. Glenn has
never, so far as I am ever aware, espoused any such views.
and i think he HAS. that's PRECISELY the point under discussion. it's
MY contention that someone who tries to blame shift is practicing a
form of antisemitism.
|
IMO, Glenn _is_ praciticing a type of denial: a denial that the group
which he self-associates was not responsible for the Holocaust. That
is perhaps delusional, but in effect, he's merely disassociating himself
from the group of Christians who were involved. I think to call that
antisemitism is to rather weaken the term.
| Quote: |
those who deny the shoah are antisemites
|
For all his may faults, I don't think Glenn has ever approached doing
this.
| Quote: |
why aren't those who deny xtianity's complicity ALSO antisemites? what
makes the holocaust deniers antisemitic, while those who deny the
historical fact of xtianity's complicity NOT antisemitic?
|
Again, I think Glenn's argument is that such people weren't really
Christians. I personally think that's a silly argument to make: they
certainly called themselves such, and were identified as such by their
churches. But I think if the word antisemitism is to mean anything,
there has to be a degree of malice involved, and frankly, I don't think
Glenn has any malice towards Jews. He may be deluded, but I think it
carries no malice.
| Quote: |
I refuse to
allow you to just simply redefine a very concretely-defined concept simply
so you can try to bully your way to some sort of rhetorical victory.
your view of antisemitism simply does not comport with the historical
facts.
|
I too, am curious as to this definition of antisemitism. I don't think
it's very consistent with the historic use of the term. Wikipedia
defines it as prejudice and hostility toward Jews. I don't think that
Glenn has given anyone any cause to believe that he harbors any such
animosity. Wikipedia goes on to list four types of antisemitism which
Catholic (gasp!) historian Edward Flannery recognized, and several other
types, such as the opposition to the state of Israel. Again, I know of
no reason to believe that these categories apply to Glenn. Wikipedia
lists Helen Fein as defining antisemitism as "a persisting latent
structure of hostile beliefs towards Jews as a collective manifested in
individuals as attitudes, and in culture as myth, ideology, folklore and
imagery, and in actions -- social or legal discrimination, political
mobilization against the Jews, and collective or state violence -- which
results in and/or is designed to distance, displace, or destroy Jews as
Jews." I dont think that applies either, do you?
| Quote: |
trying to whitewash xtian history, while shoving the blame for
antisemitism onto science is, in and of itself, a form of antisemitism
since it denies the role that xtianity played in creating
antisemitism.
It's an attempt to rewrite history. It certainly isn't anti-Semitism.
why not? one believes in an ideology he thinks is 'too good' to be
antisemitic and it leads to denial of the role of xtianity in
antisemitism. that's antisemitic.
It's not anti-Semitic because he's not saying anything against Jews.
nor, of course, do the holocaust deniers.
|
Of course they do. Ultimately, they claim that the Holocaust was a lie
perpetrated by Jews to further their own notorious ends. It's subtle
when the light shines on them brightly, just like the fundamentalist
Christianity of ID theorists fade in public, but when the lights go
down, you can see it, and what's more the courts can see it.
| Quote: |
He's
not adopting a position of the inferiority or evils of Jewry. He's not
advocating any of the positions you'll find among anti-Semites. He's an
anti-evolutionist to be sure, but that is not hte same thing.
being an anti evolutionist is not necessarily antisemitic.
saying that evolution caused the shoah, while xtianity had a minor
role IS antisemitic for the same reason being a holocaust denier is.
|
I'd say you've rather overstretched. Again, if there is no malice toward
Jews, that isn't antisemitism. It may be mistaken, but it isn't antisemitism.
| Quote: |
you say you know alot about history but seem to be unaware that many
antisemites simply deny the role of xtianity in the creation of
antisemitism. glenn's blameshifting is one such tactic.
|
That Glenn may share one particular argument with antisemites is hardly
reason to believe that he is one. Antisemites aren't evil because they
are wrong about the root cause of antisemitism: they are evil because
they hate Jews.
| Quote: |
You don't even make any sense, for goodness sakes. Anti-semites don't think
hatred of Jews is wrong.
and, again, there are many ways to express hatred. someone who denies
the existence of the shoah, though never expressing hatred of
jews...is that antisemitism?
|
Glenn didn't do that, so I am not sure what the purpose of this line
actually is. You are trying to draw a point in the middle, but Glenn
didn't reach that middle point.
| Quote: |
It's the very core of the flippin' notion! A
Christian anti-Semite doesn't deny that Christianity played a role in
anti-Jewish sentiment, for goodness sake, he embraces the notion. To his
mind, anti-Semitism is a justified belief. Why would such a person deny
Christianity's role?
and there are many forms of bigotry. how about the slaveowner who
loves his slaves, but 'knows' blacks are just too stupid to live on
their own. is he a bigot? sure he is. he doesn't have to hate
blacks...
|
I don't think that Glenn has met this particular standard either.
| Quote: |
and where has he owned up to the fact that christians created modern
antisemitism? that they practiced it for a thousand years? that
evolution had nothing to do with it?
It's a wrong view, but not an anti-Semitic one.
wrong. absolutely wrong. it certainly IS antisemitic since it
exculpates those who've caused antisemitism while trying to shift the
blame.
No, absolutely right. You don't even know what you're talking about. Go
look into such infamous anti-Semite groups as the KKK, White Supremacists,
or even the slightly less virulent anti-Semitism espoused by certain groups
of Pentacostals.
you've obviously never read the proslavery literature where the
slaveowners thought they were doing god's work by taking care of the
poor, stupid blacks. they were doing the blacks a favor, so they
thought...loving them...showing them god's will. no hatred there.
but certainly it was racism
|
Again, I am uncertain how this applies to Glenn.
| Quote: |
And can you point to anyone who, while trying to minimize Christian
involvement in anti-Semitic beliefs, who has caused anti-Semitism to
increase. These people don't encourage any of the anti-Semitic beliefs,
they simply want to make Christianity look squeaky clean by minimizing
Christianity's involvement. They certainly don't encourage hatred of Jews,
often quite the opposite.
and what, then, do they say to the jews and others who say 'j'accuse'
to xtianity? what's the difference between them and the holocaust
deniers?
|
There is quite a large difference. There were Christians who were opposed to
slavery, just as there were Christians who were in favor of it. Similarly,
there were Christians who were _responsible_ for the Holocaust, those who
were _complicit_, and those who were _opposed to it_, and those who were
_ignorant_ of it. Did Christianity helped fuel the antisemitism of Nazi
Germany? Without a doubt. But it's a gross oversimplification to lay the
blame on "Christianity". Glenn makes the same kind of oversimplification,
but on the other side: mainly downplaying the role of Christianity below
any rational evaluation of the evidence. But he doesn't appear to do so
on the basis of malice, so he is merely mistaken and/or deluded.
| Quote: |
fine. if you think there's only ONE form of antisemitism, you're
blissfully ignorant of history.
You have no idea what you're talking about, I'm afraid. You seem incredibly
ignorant of Christian anti-Semitism, but seem quite willing to play
dishonest rhetorical games.
meaningless. lacking historical substance...you're obviously winging
it.
|
While I recognize that Wikipedia isn't authoritative on many subjects,
their listing of antisemitism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism
cites a number of scholars and groups which sought to define
antisemitism. As far as my reading goes, all of them include some kind
of hatred or malice toward Jews. If you'd like to suggest a scholar who
uses the term in the rather more broad sense that you seem to employ,
I'd be interested in hearing it, but I think the evidence suggest that
it's not uncommon to believe that hatred or malice is a core part of
most definitions of antisemitism.
Mind you, Glenn _is_ wrong about the relative importance of Christianity
and evolutionary thought: I think that is rather clear. But people can
be wrong without harboring malice.
Mark |
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wf3h
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| Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 11:13 pm Post subject: Re: the nazis banned darwin and upheld christian literature |
|
|
On Mar 18, 6:51 pm, AC <mightymartia...@gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
On Tue, 18 Mar 2008 15:45:49 -0700 (PDT),
wf3h <w...@vsswireless.net> wrote:
On Mar 18, 5:57 pm, Glenn <GlennShel...@msn.com> wrote:
You're as nutty as Wf3h. You define "Christian behavior" in such a way
as to support your contention that the Nazi's behavior and monstrous
acts were Christian behavior. Why can I not do the same and define
your behavior as "Christian", and therefore "Nazi"?-
what is 'christian behavior'? for a thousand years christians waged
war against the jews.so you tell me: what is 'christian' about that
behavior?
That is not true either. Anti-semitism in Christendom waxed and waned in
different times and places. Some Popes, for instance, condemned Jews, while
others defended and protected them. Over all, anti-Semitism was rife in
Christendom from early days, but I don't think you can justify the statement
"waged a war".
--
|
and i think you can. jews were, at one time, expelled from every
european country by christians. in spain 1/3 of all jews were killed
by christians. similar fates awaited them in most christian countries.
by what measure is this not a 'war'? |
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Mark VandeWettering
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| Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 4:15 am Post subject: Re: the nazis banned darwin and upheld christian literature |
|
|
On 2008-03-18, wf3h <wf3h@vsswireless.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
On Mar 18, 1:00 pm, Ernest Major <{$t...@meden.demon.co.uk> wrote:
In message
b8ad2105-9105-454d-a426-ebf605cb1...@n75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
wf3h <w...@vsswireless.net> writes
On Mar 18, 7:38 am, Ernest Major <{$t...@meden.demon.co.uk> wrote:
And it's not clear that Glenn is guilty here - to quote Mark Van de
Wettering elsethread, it's plausible that Glenn's actions "... (don't)
harbor malice: (they're) basically designed to make him feel better
about the group with which he self-identifies". To quote Bob Casanova
elsethread it may be "more guilt and embarrassment than antisemitism".
that may be possible. it's entirely possible. perhaps i'm wrong. but
the fact is, bigotry requires neither malice nor hate. when the
catholic church preaches that homosexuality is 'objectively morally
disordered', i personally believe they do not hate gays. BUT i do
believe they are bigoted.
You're engaging in a red-herring. Glenn's opinions here aren't about
Jews - they're about Christians and Nazis and "Darwinists". Even if you
extend anti-semitism to include any prejudiced views about Jews Glenn's
comments don't qualify.
are you saying nazis had nothing to say about jews?
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I'm saying that Glenn didn't say anything about the Jews.
Mark |
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