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Mike Barnes
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 Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 11:07 am Post subject: Re: Man Plays Ukulele and Wins |
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In alt.usage.english, Oleg Lego wrote:
| Quote: |
On Fri, 18 May 2007 09:25:43 +0800, Robert Bannister posted:
Mike Barnes wrote:
In alt.usage.english, John Wilkins wrote:
I use a Mac and nobody's tried to write a seriously bad virus for
Macs yet.
I suspect that there are quite a lot of applications that nobody's had a
serious go at writing for a Mac.
Those aren't applications; they are viruses.
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Seeing as these programs don't actually exist, that's extremely
perceptive of you.
| Quote: |
What differentiates, in your mind, a virus from an application? Seems
to me that a virus is just an application whose purpose you dislike.
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If that was a straight question, a virus distinguishes itself by self-
replicating without permission.
--
Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England |
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| Posted: Sat May 19, 2007 11:05 am Post subject: Re: Man Plays Ukulele and Wins |
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Mike Barnes wrote:
| Quote: |
In alt.usage.english, Robert Bannister wrote:
Mike Barnes wrote:
In alt.usage.english, John Wilkins wrote:
Mike Barnes <mikebarnes@bluebottle.com> wrote:
In alt.usage.english, John Wilkins wrote:
I use a Mac and nobody's tried to write a seriously bad virus for
Macs yet.
I suspect that there are quite a lot of applications that nobody's had a
serious go at writing for a Mac. That's one reason why I'm happy to keep
my PC and deal with the potential virus situation.
Games, sure.
Actually I don't have any games on my PC. I get enough intellectual
challenge and satisfaction from creative activities. No, not creating
viruses.
Did you build it yourself? I didn't know it was possible to buy a
computer that didn't have at least some form of patience hidden away
somewhere.
Some games were installed with Windows, but I uninstalled them using the
program provided in Control Panel. I suppose there might be further
games I don't know about (trying to get the driver for my external sound
card to stay installed is a sort of game, one which I don't imagine ever
winning), so make that "I don't have any games that I know about on my
PC".
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Business customers can purchase gameless editions of most operating
systems, although I thought the little games were the main selling
point for some upgrades. For instance, this is a Microsoft UMPC and
it's the first time I've had Sudoku.
(Room for improvement. I believe I've been given grids without a
unique solution, on the other hand you can write a whole row as "1"
and the computer will reject the wrong guesses, then you can write
'"2" in all the boxes where "1" was wrong, etc. There's a TV game
that has a round like that, shout out answers as fast as you can until
you get a lucky hit.)
Some of the major business applications have contained hidden "easter
egg" material - the term implies hunting for hidden goodies, where
illogical actions (such as saving a file that youdhaven't typed
anything into - but that isn't a real example), and that has included
simple bonus games.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter_egg_%28virtual%29 mentions Word 97
and Excel 97 for PC, and will (at the moment) interest
alt.usage.english - if I am not mistaken - by declaring "The largest
Easter egg is purported to be in the Atari 400/800 version of Pitfall
II: Lost Caverns, which contains an entire game that was more complex
and challenging than the original Pitfall II." |
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Earle Jones
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| Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 9:56 am Post subject: Re: Man Plays Ukulele and Wins |
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In article <ahej43puve8jt0js1nqa58bkctsg4k5117@4ax.com>,
Desertphile <desertphile@nospam.org> wrote:
| Quote: |
On 15 May 2007 01:54:46 -0700, Will <billrigby@hotmail.com> wrote:
On May 14, 4:52 am, s...@sig.for.address (Victor Eijkhout) wrote:
Isn't that the definition of a gentleman? Someone who can play the
ukelele but won't?
No, a gentleman is a man who can play the saxophone, but doesn't.
I heard it was a banjo. As in "He committed premeditated banjo!"
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*
Actually, it was an accordion.
A guy I know owned a very expensive high-end Italian accordion. When
traveling he kept it in the back seat of his car.
He had some business in a rather seedy part of San Francisco and was
worried about his accordion. But his business was quick and he left his
car for only a few minutes.
When he got back to his car, he noticed that the back window was bashed
in and his heart sank.
He looked into the back seat -- and there were two accordions!
earle
* |
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Earle Jones
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| Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 10:06 am Post subject: Re: Man Plays Ukulele and Wins |
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In article <1hy5gwp.1uhfntd13atlofN%j.wilkins1@uq.edu.au>,
j.wilkins1@uq.edu.au (John Wilkins) wrote:
| Quote: |
rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
John Wilkins wrote:
rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
Richard Smol wrote:
On May 13, 10:55 pm, Robert Carnegie <rja.carne...@excite.com> wrote:
Jeffrey Turner wrote:
You really do want to watch this video.
Weird choice of cross-post, and no I don't. I think you're unclear
on
how this "want" thing works.
However, I have just updated Windows with the latest patches for
Internet Explorer to avoid virus infection when people tell me I
should go to a Web site. Of course, the bugs that /haven't/ been
patched are still there to catch me out.
Lighten up.. it's YouTube. And that video has already been around for
a while.
How do I know that's true? And how do I know that a video containing
a virus couldn't be sent through YouTube, or through a hyperlink that
looks like YouTube. There are or have been Windows vulnerabilities
with /text editors/.
So, either get a decent virus checker or ditch Windows in favour of
Ubuntu Linux or something similar.
I use other software that requires Windows. And a virus checker does
not redeem risky behaviour.
I personally think the only risky behaviour is *clicking* on the links.
And this is something one does in terms of risk analysis - the plain
fact that a link is provided in good faith is not risky.
And let's say the video is fine. What has it got to do with
alt.usage.english or with talk.origins ?
Face it - USENET is a community for some of us sad sacks. And people
share stuff with their community.
Isn't it reasonable to fear a link posted into a group with not much
more than "You have got to see this"? Remember Anna Kournikova?
No. I use a Mac and nobody's tried to write a seriously bad virus for
Macs yet.
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*
John: Greetings!
I have a good friend who is a senior computer security maven (PhD in
Electrical Engineering/Computer Science from Harvard) with many clients
in both the government and commercial world.
I asked him, "Why don't Macs have the same virus -- malware -- problems
that PCs have?"
"Two reasons", he tells me. "First of all the real hacker wants to
disrupt a bigger audience than the Mac community."
"But perhaps more importantly, the Mac is fundamentally more difficult
to disrupt. It rides on a UNIX kernel -- and remember that UNIX was
developed by Bell Labs as the operating system for what were called
'minicomputers', like the VAX and others. These computers were designed
for multiple users. UNIX was designed to allow a user easy access to
his own data, but to keep any user away from someone else's data."
In another reference I recall that someone was asked, "How many malwares
have been identified for PC and how many for Mac?"
The answer was something like "2,500 for PC and 4 for the Mac."
earle
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Oleg Lego
Guest
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| Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 10:08 am Post subject: Re: Man Plays Ukulele and Wins |
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On Sat, 19 May 2007 07:22:33 -0400, Roland Hutchinson posted:
| Quote: |
Oleg Lego wrote:
On Fri, 18 May 2007 14:33:45 -0400, Walter Bushell posted:
In article <mcbq439k29o5ff9dqgj452auk640mkv6t7@4ax.com>,
Oleg Lego <rat@atatatat.com> wrote:
On Fri, 18 May 2007 09:25:43 +0800, Robert Bannister posted:
Mike Barnes wrote:
In alt.usage.english, John Wilkins wrote:
I use a Mac and nobody's tried to write a seriously bad virus for
Macs yet.
I suspect that there are quite a lot of applications that nobody's
had a serious go at writing for a Mac.
Those aren't applications; they are viruses.
What differentiates, in your mind, a virus from an application? Seems
to me that a virus is just an application whose purpose you dislike.
And spreads itself without knowledge of the users. Most non viri have to
be installed.
So, it's a self-installing application that replicates itself.
Strictly speaking, that's a worm.
A virus in the strict sense is a self-installing and self-replicating
_modification_ to an existing application.
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Not necessarily, but nonetheless, what you describe is an application
that self-installs, self-replicates, and modifies an existing
application.
I can understand if you do not wish to call microcode, firmware, or an
O/S, an application, but it seems to me that anything else that
executes code in a computer, is an application. |
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Earle Jones
Guest
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| Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 10:10 am Post subject: Re: Man Plays Ukulele and Wins |
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In article <1hy7c7n.1ha8yxd8ni6cqN%j.wilkins1@uq.edu.au>,
j.wilkins1@uq.edu.au (John Wilkins) wrote:
| Quote: |
rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
John Wilkins wrote:
rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
...
Isn't it reasonable to fear a link posted into a group with not much
more than "You have got to see this"? Remember Anna Kournikova?
No. I use a Mac and nobody's tried to write a seriously bad virus for
Macs yet.
Modern Macs, perhaps not - give or take "nobody's tried yet". It was
a sad day for virus writers when Apple stopped making their PCs
autorun any disc that was put in. And a happy day when Microsoft
started it.
You know I have been using Macs since 1985, just as soon as I could get
an employer to buy me one, and I *never* saw autorun on disks on a Mac.
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*
John: Greetings again!
As a Mac user since 1984 or 85, I was once asked whether I had ever had
a virus on my computer. "Yes", I answered. "There was an old WDEF
(windows definition) virus that came up around 1988 or so -- I got
myself a copy of the virus on a floppy disk. I used it to test some
Symantec virus detection software, which worked fine -- detecting and
eliminating the virus."
In using Macs from 1984 through today, I have never detected a virus
that I didn't put there myself!
earle
* |
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John Wilkins
Guest
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| Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 10:47 am Post subject: Re: Man Plays Ukulele and Wins |
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Earle Jones <earle.jones@comcast.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
In article <1hy5gwp.1uhfntd13atlofN%j.wilkins1@uq.edu.au>,
j.wilkins1@uq.edu.au (John Wilkins) wrote:
rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
John Wilkins wrote:
rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
Richard Smol wrote:
On May 13, 10:55 pm, Robert Carnegie <rja.carne...@excite.com
wrote: > Jeffrey Turner wrote:
You really do want to watch this video.
Weird choice of cross-post, and no I don't. I think you're
unclear on how this "want" thing works.
However, I have just updated Windows with the latest patches
for Internet Explorer to avoid virus infection when people
tell me I should go to a Web site. Of course, the bugs that
/haven't/ been patched are still there to catch me out.
Lighten up.. it's YouTube. And that video has already been
around for a while.
How do I know that's true? And how do I know that a video
containing a virus couldn't be sent through YouTube, or through a
hyperlink that looks like YouTube. There are or have been Windows
vulnerabilities with /text editors/.
So, either get a decent virus checker or ditch Windows in favour of
Ubuntu Linux or something similar.
I use other software that requires Windows. And a virus checker does
not redeem risky behaviour.
I personally think the only risky behaviour is *clicking* on the links.
And this is something one does in terms of risk analysis - the plain
fact that a link is provided in good faith is not risky.
And let's say the video is fine. What has it got to do with
alt.usage.english or with talk.origins ?
Face it - USENET is a community for some of us sad sacks. And people
share stuff with their community.
Isn't it reasonable to fear a link posted into a group with not much
more than "You have got to see this"? Remember Anna Kournikova?
No. I use a Mac and nobody's tried to write a seriously bad virus for
Macs yet.
*
John: Greetings!
I have a good friend who is a senior computer security maven (PhD in
Electrical Engineering/Computer Science from Harvard) with many clients
in both the government and commercial world.
I asked him, "Why don't Macs have the same virus -- malware -- problems
that PCs have?"
"Two reasons", he tells me. "First of all the real hacker wants to
disrupt a bigger audience than the Mac community."
"But perhaps more importantly, the Mac is fundamentally more difficult
to disrupt. It rides on a UNIX kernel -- and remember that UNIX was
developed by Bell Labs as the operating system for what were called
'minicomputers', like the VAX and others. These computers were designed
for multiple users. UNIX was designed to allow a user easy access to
his own data, but to keep any user away from someone else's data."
In another reference I recall that someone was asked, "How many malwares
have been identified for PC and how many for Mac?"
The answer was something like "2,500 for PC and 4 for the Mac."
earle
*
|
I would have said something similar but it would run the risk of
igniting OS wars. But the fact that so many viruses are *possible* on
the pre-Vista OS should indicate something is not right about their
permissions handling. And their use of runtime libraries, which are
fundamentally infectable.
I'm sure we will get a security problem on Mac OS X some day - nothing
is perfect and what humans can protect against, humans can find a way
around. But really, 2500 malwares?
I spent five hours recently removing all the accreted spyware from my
home PC (used by kids who think filesharing is a Good Thing). It *had*
virus protection and spyware protection....
--
John S. Wilkins, Postdoctoral Research Fellow, Biohumanities Project
University of Queensland - Blog: scienceblogs.com/evolvingthoughts
"He used... sarcasm. He knew all the tricks, dramatic irony, metaphor,
bathos, puns, parody, litotes and... satire. He was vicious." |
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Oleg Lego
Guest
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| Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 9:52 am Post subject: Re: Man Plays Ukulele and Wins |
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On Sun, 20 May 2007 18:33:59 +0100, Mike Barnes posted:
| Quote: |
In alt.usage.english, Oleg Lego wrote:
I can understand if you do not wish to call microcode, firmware, or an
O/S, an application, but it seems to me that anything else that
executes code in a computer, is an application.
Not to me - an "application" directly addresses one of the purposes for
which the computer is employed. This isn't just an etymological point,
it's the way I use the word, and the way I hear it used.
|
"One of the purposes for which the computer is employed" is somewhat
muddling, in that any program written for a computer defines the
purpose for which the computer will be employed when running that
program.
| Quote: |
So Excel and iTunes are applications. But between the operating system
(etc) and those applications are what I call "utilities", which oil the
wheels of the computer, so to speak, without making it achieve anything
it couldn't otherwise have achieved. Anti-virus software is a utility,
because it's concerned only with the internal workings of the PC, not
with any actual work. It's not an application.
But any attempt at precise classification is doomed.
|
I think you're right, but most of the reason this is so, is because
the purpose of a computer is to do whatever the program tells it to
do. You may not consider an anti-virus program to be an application,
but many others will think it's an application that serves to allow
other applications to run.
Even if I conceded that an anti-virus program is a utility, what would
I call the virus itself? It is clearly an application to the person
who wrote it, quietly doing its job of infecting computers not owned
by the author, and thus, could not be called a utility, as it's not
concerned with the internal working of the author's machine. |
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Mike Barnes
Guest
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| Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 11:02 am Post subject: Re: Man Plays Ukulele and Wins |
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In alt.usage.english, wrote:
| Quote: |
Mike Barnes wrote:
In alt.usage.english, Oleg Lego wrote:
I can understand if you do not wish to call microcode, firmware, or an
O/S, an application, but it seems to me that anything else that
executes code in a computer, is an application.
Not to me - an "application" directly addresses one of the purposes for
which the computer is employed. This isn't just an etymological point,
it's the way I use the word, and the way I hear it used.
So Excel and iTunes are applications. But between the operating system
(etc) and those applications are what I call "utilities", which oil the
wheels of the computer, so to speak, without making it achieve anything
it couldn't otherwise have achieved. Anti-virus software is a utility,
because it's concerned only with the internal workings of the PC, not
with any actual work. It's not an application.
But any attempt at precise classification is doomed.
Nevertheless, I'd also separate out "games" which don't achieve
anything.
|
I can see why you'd do that, but I wouldn't. If I played games, I'd
regard entertaining me as a perfectly valid achievement. The fact that
computers are designed and sold with that as their only application
speaks volumes.
| Quote: |
[...]
But aside from these issues, yeah - an "application" is a tool to do
work that would still have to be done if you didn't hace the
computer. A utility is a tool to do work that the computer created!
|
Agreed.
--
Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England |
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Mike Barnes
Guest
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| Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 11:02 am Post subject: Re: Man Plays Ukulele and Wins |
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In alt.usage.english, Oleg Lego wrote:
| Quote: |
On Sun, 20 May 2007 18:33:59 +0100, Mike Barnes posted:
In alt.usage.english, Oleg Lego wrote:
I can understand if you do not wish to call microcode, firmware, or an
O/S, an application, but it seems to me that anything else that
executes code in a computer, is an application.
Not to me - an "application" directly addresses one of the purposes for
which the computer is employed. This isn't just an etymological point,
it's the way I use the word, and the way I hear it used.
"One of the purposes for which the computer is employed" is somewhat
muddling, in that any program written for a computer defines the
purpose for which the computer will be employed when running that
program.
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ISWYM but that seems wilfully myopic, and doesn't represent my usual
thought processes, nor, I suspect, those of the average user. Especially
so for a background program which the user doesn't consciously run.
| Quote: |
So Excel and iTunes are applications. But between the operating system
(etc) and those applications are what I call "utilities", which oil the
wheels of the computer, so to speak, without making it achieve anything
it couldn't otherwise have achieved. Anti-virus software is a utility,
because it's concerned only with the internal workings of the PC, not
with any actual work. It's not an application.
But any attempt at precise classification is doomed.
I think you're right, but most of the reason this is so, is because
the purpose of a computer is to do whatever the program tells it to
do.
|
Again, myopically speaking, you're right. But I submit that most people
don't acquire computers with the objective of running programs. They
acquire computers for Internet access, games, word-processing, etc. If
those activities could be carried out in some other way that didn't
involve running a program, the users' actual purposes would still be
satisfied.
| Quote: |
You may not consider an anti-virus program to be an application,
but many others will think it's an application that serves to allow
other applications to run.
|
You appear to be contradicting yourself. Earlier you suggested that an
operating system is not regarded as an application, and I agree. Now you
say that if a program serves to allow applications to run (which is
exactly what an operating system does) it can be regarded as an
application. You can't have it both ways.
| Quote: |
Even if I conceded that an anti-virus program is a utility,
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I only said that that's the way I think of it. I'm not seeking to
persuade you to do likewise.
| Quote: |
what would
I call the virus itself? It is clearly an application to the person
who wrote it, quietly doing its job of infecting computers not owned
by the author, and thus, could not be called a utility, as it's not
concerned with the internal working of the author's machine.
|
It means different things for different people. That's one of the
reasons I said "any attempt at precise classification is doomed". In
particular, hardware manufacturers and software writers often have a
different slant on things.
--
Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England |
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Oleg Lego
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 9:20 am Post subject: Re: Man Plays Ukulele and Wins |
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On Mon, 21 May 2007 15:36:04 -0600, Oleg Lego posted:
| Quote: |
On Mon, 21 May 2007 09:12:29 -0700, Evan Kirshenbaum posted:
rja.carnegie@excite.com writes:
Some of the major business applications have contained hidden
"easter egg" material - the term implies hunting for hidden goodies,
where illogical actions (such as saving a file that youdhaven't
typed anything into - but that isn't a real example), and that has
included simple bonus games.
There was an HP digital oscilloscope that had a version of, I believe
it was, Asteroids as an easter egg. Looking for it, I see that one of
our function generators could be made to play the Hallelujah chorus
(in four-part harmony) by pushing the correct buttons:
http://www.slack.com/hp3314a.html
The 54600B scope apparently played Tetris and the 54645D played
Centipede:
http://www.eeggs.com/items/28801.html
The latter may be the one I remember, but my memory says that it was
some space game.
Incredible! I sometimes look for Easter Eggs in various programs, but
never thought to look for one in my 'scope. I have a 54645D, and just
now tried it. Sure enough, Centipede shows up. Unfortunately, I can't
seem to make the little player move higher than about the 5th row up.
Perhaps I don't know the rules.
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I was right. Found the "Fire" button. Very nifty.
| Quote: |
That last site appears to be a nice collection of easter eggs.
It is indeed. Thanks!
|
Got more from that site. The badger picture on the 54645D is great!
Evan, were you involved with the manufacture/programming of that
'scope? |
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Richard Maurer
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 11:00 am Post subject: Re: Man Plays Ukulele and Wins |
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Oleg Lego wrote:
Incredible! I sometimes look for Easter Eggs
in various programs, but never thought to look
for one in my 'scope. I have a 54645D, and just
now tried it. Sure enough, Centipede shows up.
Unfortunately, I can't seem to make the little playe
move higher than about the 5th row up.
Perhaps I don't know the rules.
From memory, that sounds about right for the
player graphic. Let's see, yes, wikipedia
scores again in the breadth column:
http://strategywiki.org/wiki/Centipede
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centipede_(video_game)
(The second link does not work for me,
but you can get there from the first.)
-- ---------------------------------------------
Richard Maurer To reply, remove half
Sunnyvale, California of a homonym of a synonym for also.
---------------------------------------------------------------------- |
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