Science Talk

SJAB1958 · Guest

Checker (a good Baptist) claims the apostles only ever made disciples
and never made any other apostles. Yet he quotes from Acts chapter
one, without seeing what it says in verses 23-26 about how Matthias,
one of the many disciples was chosen to join the remaining eleven
apostles (as a replacement for Judas). Surely that then is the
elevation of a disciple to the ranks of an apostle, and if it isn't
then what would be?

"And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed
Justus, and Matthias. And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which
knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast
chosen, That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from
which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he
was numbered with the eleven apostles." (KJV)

Another of Checker's claims was that the early churches (or
congregations as he calls them) were set up to be autonomous. Now if
this was the case and they truly were self-governing and independent,
then why would the New Testament contain 21 epistles (or letters)
written by the apostles to these "autonomous" churches (not forgetting
the NT contains just 27 books in total). After this was pointed out,
Checker then claimed that these early churches became autonomous after
the apostles died.

Another response of Checker's to the existence of the 21 epistles in
the New Testament was that Paul alone had written them all. However
when I then informed him that this was not the case his reaction was
that it was no big deal.

That is a rather strange reaction from a person who belongs to a
denomination that practices "sola scriptura", and here is evidence for
this practice in the Baptist movements: "Chapter one of the 1689
Baptist Confession of Faith states: "The Holy Scripture is the only
sufficient, certain, and infallible rule of all saving knowledge,
faith, and obedience"."

Checker also claims that there was no apostolic succession leading
from those early days to the present time and the pope of the Roman
Catholic Church, and the only reason he can give for this is because
the apostles died. But consider the fact previously raised that
Matthias was elected to the rank of apostle (Acts 1:23-26), if one
could be elected thus, then when others of the first apostles died
they could also be replaced in the same manner, allowing for a
succession where Checker claims that there is none.

However there is evidence to counter his claims against the apostolic
succession in the writings of one of the fathers of the early church,
St Irenaeus (born sometime in the first half of the second century
AD). Here are two extracts from his writings to support the existence
of the apostolic succession.

"Against Heresies", book one, chapter twenty-seven (this chapter being
entitled - "Doctrines of Cerdo and Marcion.")

"Cerdo was one who took his system from the followers of Simon, and
came to live at Rome in the time of Hyginus, who held the ninth place
in the episcopal succession from the apostles downwards."

"Against Heresies", book three chapter three (this chapter being
entitled - "A refutation of the heretics, from the fact that, in the
various Churches, a perpetual succession of bishops was kept up.")

"It is within the power of all, therefore, in every Church, who may
wish to see the truth, to contemplate clearly the tradition of the
apostles manifested throughout the whole world; and we are in a
position to reckon up those who were by the apostles instituted
bishops in the Churches, and [to demonstrate] the succession of these
men to our own times;"

And regarding the early church on another issue also connected with
the papacy and not present in the Baptist churches is the presence and
importance of the bishops, presbyters, deacons and laymen and the
order of things already established in those early days (even before
the end of the first century AD).

Another earlier church father, St Ignatius (Bishop of Antioch, elected
to that position by St Peter according to the traditions discarded by
the Baptists) mentions these ranks and their importance many times in
his various epistles to other churches of those early days.

Here are some of the references that I have found to support the
present hierarchy found in the Roman Catholic Church and others:

The Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians

Chapter II

It is therefore befitting that you should in every way glorify Jesus
Christ, who hath glorified you, that by a unanimous obedience "ye may
be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same
judgment, and may all speak the same thing concerning the same thing,"
and that, being subject to the bishop and the presbytery, ye may in
all respects be sanctified.

Chapter III

For even Jesus Christ, our inseparable life, is the [manifested] will
of the Father; as also bishops, settled everywhere to the utmost
bounds [of the earth], are so by the will of Jesus Christ.

Chapter IV

Wherefore it is fitting that ye should run together in accordance with
the will of your bishop, which thing also ye do. For your justly
renowned presbytery, worthy of God, is fitted as exactly to the bishop
as the strings are to the harp.

Chapter V

Let no man deceive himself: if any one be not within the altar, he is
deprived of the bread of God. For if the prayer of one or two
possesses such power, how much more that of the bishop and the whole
Church! He, therefore, that does not assemble with the Church, has
even by this manifested his pride, and condemned himself. For it is
written, "God resisteth the proud." Let us be careful, then, not to
set ourselves in opposition to the bishop, in order that we may be
subject to God.

Chapter VI

Now the more any one sees the bishop keeping silence, the more ought
he to revere him. For we ought to receive every one whom the Master of
the house sends to be over His household, as we would do Him that sent
him. It is manifest, therefore, that we should look upon the bishop
even as we would upon the Lord Himself.

Chapter XX

Especially [will I do this] if the Lord make known to me that ye come
together man by man in common through grace, individually, in one
faith, and in Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David according to
the flesh, being both the Son of man and the Son of God, so that ye
obey the bishop and the presbytery with an undivided mind, breaking
one and the same bread, which is the medicine of immortality, and the
antidote to prevent us from dying, but [which causes] that we should
live for ever in Jesus Christ.

The Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians

Chapter II

Since, then, I have had the privilege of seeing you, through Damas
your most worthy bishop, and through your worthy presbyters Bassus and
Apollonius, and through my fellow-servant the deacon Sotio, whose
friendship may I ever enjoy, inasmuch as he is subject to the bishop
as to the grace of God, and to the presbytery as to the law of Jesus
Christ,

Chapter III

Now it becomes you also not to despise the age of your bishop, but to
yield him all reverence, according to the will of God the Father, as I
have known even holy presbyters do, not having regard to the manifest
youth [of their bishop], but to his knowledge in God; inasmuch as "not
the ancient are [necessarily] wise, nor do the aged understand
prudence; but there is a spirit in men."

Chapter IV

It is fitting, then, not only to be called Christians, but to be so in
reality. For it is not the being called so, but the being really so,
that renders a man blessed. To those who indeed talk of the bishop,
but do all things without him, will He who is the true and first
Bishop, and the only High Priest by nature, declare, "Why call ye Me
Lord, and do not the things which I say?" For such persons seem to me
not possessed of a good conscience, but to be simply dissemblers and
hypocrites.

Chapter VI

Since therefore I have, in the persons before mentioned, beheld the
whole multitude of you in faith and love, I exhort you to study to do
all things with a divine harmony, while your bishop presides in the
place of God, and your presbyters in the place of the assembly of the
apostles, along with your deacons, who are most dear to me, and are
entrusted with the ministry of Jesus Christ.

Chapter VII

As therefore the Lord does nothing without the Father, for says He, "I
can of mine own self do nothing," so do ye, neither presbyter, nor
deacon, nor layman, do anything without the bishop. Nor let anything
appear commendable to you which is destitute of his approval. For
every such thing is sinful, and opposed [to the will of] God.

Chapter XIII

Study, therefore, to be established in the doctrines of the Lord and
the apostles, that so all things, whatsoever ye do, may prosper both
in the flesh and spirit; in faith and love; in the Son, and in the
Father, and in the Spirit; in the beginning and in the end; with your
most admirable bishop, and the well-compacted spiritual crown of your
presbytery, and the deacons who are according to God. Be ye subject to
the bishop, and to one another, as Jesus Christ to the Father,
according to the flesh, and the apostles to Christ, and to the Father,
and to the Spirit; that so there may be a union both fleshly and
spiritual.

And those extracts come from just the first two epistles of the seven
that have been confirmed as having been written by St Ignatius, if I
find any others, then I will post them here too.