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chazwin
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 Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 11:12 am Post subject: Re: Darwinism Is Becoming The West's Myth |
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On 21 Jul, 08:21, "brique" <briquen...@freeuk.c0m> wrote:
| Quote: |
Lorentz <drosen0...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1184971169.567432.207320@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
On Jul 15, 5:36 am, "brique" <briquen...@freeuk.c0m> wrote:
Meteorite Debris <epicurusboth@YOUR_SHOESaapt.net.au> wrote in message
news:MPG.210449848222b44e989832@news.ade.connect.com.au...
There does seem to be an ass-backwards concept of Darwins theories that
suggests that evolution inevitably pushes towards producing the
'perfect'
being and that a species will all become a perfect copy of such a
perfect
example of that species, thus producing the best possible variant for
all
circumstances. Thus we get eugenics and what tends to get called
'Darwinism'.
I don't think this is very good eugenics either. For one thing, it
isn't really based on any hereditary.
In effect, eugenics, genetic manipulation or other intervention in the
natural selective process is contra-darwinism. Removing potentially
faulty
( within the context of the then environment) variants is not
'Darwinist' at
all.
This, I'm afraid, is incorrect. Darwin himself did suggest that
selective breeding could result in certain overall improvements. The
idea of improving the race is consistent with the idea of natural
selection. He did point out some of the possible shortfalls, however.
In "Ascent of Man," he pointed out that the choice of romantic
courtship probably ended up resulting in a sort of eugenics result
anyway. People are always striving for mates who are more intelligent,
stronger, healthier, more compassionate, etc. Forcing a eugenics
program on people will probably end up eliminating the natural
selection for compassion, something many of us don't want to do. So he
suggested leaving the dating game as it is.
You miss my point, Darwins Theories cover 'natural selection'... the random
mixing of various traits in a specific environment which will tend to
promote those traits best suited to survival of the species. But those
traits which are not best suited do not disappear, they re-occur, frequently
and it is necessary that they do, to meet the challenge of a future changed
environment and provide an alternative development path for that speices.
Eugenics, and here it does get a bit complicated, and 'Darwinism' or
'neo-darwinism' (why complex, because the terms are interchanged and
confused with each other when they are not scientifically compatible at all
: Darwinism is the study of the theory of natural selection, 'neo-darwinism'
is a specific application of political and social 'rules' allegedly derived
from those theories) covers 'selective breeding' : the effort to remove
undesirable traits and promote a 'pure breed' containing only those traits
deemed desirable. In doing so, the aim is to stop 'natural selection' in its
tracks, to channel evolutionary pressures into a fixed path and once
achieved, halt any further development or variation.
Mixing up all the terms does not aid the debate, which, I often think, is
the purpose of doing so for some, in the hope of giving a 'scientific' or
'natural' sheen to their theories..- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
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chazwin
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 11:12 am Post subject: Re: Idiots to the bitter end |
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On 21 Jul, 01:09, wjtin...@hotmail.com wrote:
| Quote: |
On Jul 14, 10:10 am, *Anarcissie* <anarcis...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jul 14, 9:59 am,Jack Tingle<wjtin...@hotmail.com> wrote:
That applies to a lot of things. All worldly things are impure, and
all systems are imperfect. My company has been laying off
continuously
from the 90's to very recently, and yet I still come across the
occasional idiot that they missed. I've decided there is no bottom,
and the non-existen bottom keeps changing.
I think it's curious that you think that only "idiots" are
laid off. In my managerial experience, people are laid off
when it's lay-off time because (1) they aren't working on
something critical and (2) they represent a certain cost
that needs to be eliminated. Often they are the more
talented people because such people often make more
money. As with hiring, promotion, and commerce in
general, luck is a major component of success or
failure. Same as with evolution.
And thus if you observe a company or a world in
decline you are likely to see idiots to the bitter end
I never said _only_ idiots are laid off, they're just laid off
preferentially. Lots of good people who happen to be unneeded also get
laid off. I'm just surprised we haven't run out of idiots. They are a
finite population, despite cynical musings to the contrary.
Regards,
Jack Tingle- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
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chazwin
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 11:12 am Post subject: Re: Darwinism Is Becoming The West's Myth |
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On 14 Jul, 01:59, "Mark K. Bilbo" <gm...@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
| Quote: |
On Fri, 13 Jul 2007 15:59:13 -0700, skyeyes wrote:
On Jul 13, 3:26 pm, c...@afone.as.arizona.edu (Cary Kittrell) wrote:
In article <1184364668.472530.193...@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com
Sound of Trumpet <soundoftrum...@mailcan.com> writes:
Am I the only one who finds the juxtposition of paragraph A:
The most interesting aspect of the current aggressive promotion of
evolutionary medicine (Darwinism in medicine and veterinaray
practice ) is its sheer clinical uselessness.
and paragraph B:
Similarly, with antibiotic resistance (an often-cited passage in
the Gospel According to Darwin), I have it on good authority that
the main cause of the resistance is overprescription (and other
overuse) of antibiotics.
to be kind of...well, telling?
How SOT can type that (or copy-n-paste it) without his head exploding is
beyond me. ;-
Oh, there's nothing in it...
--
Mark K. Bilbo a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
------------------------------------------------------------
"Behold the foul stench of Skeletor's breakfast burrito!"- Hide quoted text -
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chazwin
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 11:12 am Post subject: Re: Darwinism Is Becoming The West's Myth |
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To avoid cock suckers, sheep shaggers, spammers and religious nutters
AND to enjoy a expletive free philosophy News Group join
"philosophise"!
Your reasonable and thoughtful contributions are most welcome.
Chaz Wyman
On 13 Jul, 23:26, c...@afone.as.arizona.edu (Cary Kittrell) wrote:
| Quote: |
In article <1184364668.472530.193...@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com> Sound of Trumpet <soundoftrum...@mailcan.com> writes:
Am I the only one who finds the juxtposition of paragraph A:
The most interesting aspect of the current aggressive promotion of
evolutionary medicine (Darwinism in medicine and veterinaray
practice ) is its sheer clinical uselessness.
and paragraph B:
Similarly, with antibiotic resistance (an often-cited passage in the
Gospel According to Darwin), I have it on good authority that the main
cause of the resistance is overprescription (and other overuse) of
antibiotics.
to be kind of...well, telling?
-- cary |
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Gene Ward Smith
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 11:12 am Post subject: Re: Darwinism Is Becoming The West's Myth |
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chazwin <chazwyman@yahoo.com> wrote in news:1185007980.999724.325570
@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:
| Quote: |
To avoid cock suckers, sheep shaggers, spammers and religious nutters
AND to enjoy a expletive free philosophy News Group join
"philosophise"!
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How do I avoid idiots like you? |
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brique
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| Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 5:56 am Post subject: Re: Darwinism Is Becoming The West's Myth |
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Joseph K. <nihil@none.com> wrote in message
news:sl64a3t165cp7mkp8sae8o1ivsatqg54i7@4ax.com...
| Quote: |
On Sun, 15 Jul 2007 10:36:00 +0100, "brique" <briquenoir@freeuk.c0m
wrote:
Meteorite Debris <epicurusboth@YOUR_SHOESaapt.net.au> wrote in message
news:MPG.210449848222b44e989832@news.ade.connect.com.au...
Last time that great scribe Lorentz <drosen0000@yahoo.com> chipped away
at his/her stone these gems of wisdom for posterity ...
I have heard the pseudo-Darwinist argument that elimination
of the weak by secondary smoke may result in stronger race of people.
However, the person who made this statement was a scientific moron as
well as being a paranoid lunatic. He knew nothing about Darwin or
biology.
It would seem. The effect of allowing secondary smoke to select
survivors would not be a "stronger race" of people, only a race of
people who were not affected by secondary smoke, with all other traits,
good, bad and indifferent, still being present in the gene pool. There
seems to a an impression of some absolute "stronger" set of traits for
all and any environment.
There does seem to be an ass-backwards concept of Darwins theories that
suggests that evolution inevitably pushes towards producing the 'perfect'
being and that a species will all become a perfect copy of such a perfect
example of that species, thus producing the best possible variant for all
circumstances. Thus we get eugenics and what tends to get called
'Darwinism'.
In some biological circles, that idea is called Panglossianism, after
a famous article by Richard Levins and Stephen J. Gould, where they
ridicule (scientifically) it by quote Voltaire's character Dr.
Pangloss, whom after every misfortune and reversal, always said that
that happened for an ultimate good reason, and therefore that we live
in the best possible world. The interesting political implication of
that idea is that a system of privilege, castes and all that, must be
endured, for that system came about evolutionarily for a good reason,
and attempts to change the system are contra-natura.
It's all a nonsense, the strength of a species, its ability to survive
and
adapt and therefore procreate is not in being, or striving to be, the
same
uber-specimen, it is in variety, in the multiplicity of differences to be
found within its genetic pool. This is what enables a species to adapt to
changing environments and conditions, allowing the _species_ to survive
regardless of the consequence of natural selection to any particular
_individual_ within that species at any particular time.
Not all the strength of populations to survive and adapt lies in
variety. Some environmenst are very stable and most of the DNA must be
copied without variation for all populations. Some succesful species
such as turtles, sharks, dragonflies, etc, have thrived for eons
without much variation. Variety is only one aspect of evolution, most
of the time of minor importance, and it becomes more relevant when the
environment goes through major re-adjustments.
|
Indeed, as long as the environment remains stable, the tendency is to
homogenise. But the variation still crops up in every generation, it tends
not to survive, is all. But for the species to survive an environment
change, the variation needs to be there to then be 'selected', that is,
those individuals will survive to breed whereas the former 'best of' will no
longer have that advantage.
Of course, it would also depend on the speed of any environmental change
that occurred, the more sudden, the less time the species has to 'tap' its
gene pool for the best adaptation and spread it widely enough to maintain a
viable population.
Like the dodo, which was wiped out before it could 'learn' to fly again. I
suppose we could consider the shrinking ice-caps to be a practical lesson in
this subject, I wonder if anyone is observing how various species, such as
penguins, polar bears and arctic foxes, are adapting, or not, to that
environment change? |
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Walter Bushell
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| Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 8:00 am Post subject: Re: Darwinism Is Becoming The West's Myth |
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In article <1185065892.54554.0@despina.uk.clara.net>,
"brique" <briquenoir@freeuk.c0m> wrote:
| Quote: |
But the variation still crops up in every generation, it tends
not to survive, is all.
|
Some variation survives, especially in species that exploit a wide
niche, like Homer the sap. Many variants are neutral, some give
advantages in certain circumstances. For example, some give resistance
to some diseases at the cost of venerability to others. Even color
blindness can be an advantage, it give the person increased ability to
detect camouflage. "Now old Elmer is not so good in the hunt, but he can
chip flint like no one else in the tribe, so he keeps an honored place
in the tribe and stays in camp with the women while the men hunt." In
fact I have heard of a tribe that keeps having albinos in their mix even
though they never marry. It turns out that they stay home with the women
and put their strength into the women's work, which turns out to be
advantageous for the tribe. |
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brique
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| Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 1:19 am Post subject: Re: Darwinism Is Becoming The West's Myth |
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Walter Bushell <proto@oanix.com> wrote in message
news:proto-67D5C1.23001121072007@032-325-625.area1.spcsdns.net...
| Quote: |
In article <1185065892.54554.0@despina.uk.clara.net>,
"brique" <briquenoir@freeuk.c0m> wrote:
But the variation still crops up in every generation, it tends
not to survive, is all.
Some variation survives, especially in species that exploit a wide
niche, like Homer the sap. Many variants are neutral, some give
advantages in certain circumstances. For example, some give resistance
to some diseases at the cost of venerability to others. Even color
blindness can be an advantage, it give the person increased ability to
detect camouflage. "Now old Elmer is not so good in the hunt, but he can
chip flint like no one else in the tribe, so he keeps an honored place
in the tribe and stays in camp with the women while the men hunt." In
fact I have heard of a tribe that keeps having albinos in their mix even
though they never marry. It turns out that they stay home with the women
and put their strength into the women's work, which turns out to be
advantageous for the tribe.
|
Well, that would be the 'downside' of the 'Me Tarzan!' neo-darwinist
approach... sure the macho hunks go fight and generally indulge in often
fatal displays of their 'fitness' to breed..... but it's the wimps who stay
home and....um.... aid and confort.... the womenfolk who probably have a far
more successful strike rate, as it were.....:-)
But that does assume that the 'Me Tarzan' _is_ the fittest in survival
terms. Frankly, being as such tend to end up dead from meeting some other
tribes 'me Tarzan' contender.... perhaps evolution wants them out the way so
the 'wimps' and 'defectvies' can ensure the survival of the species
unhindered..... |
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Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:57 am Post subject: Re: Darwinism Is Becoming The West's Myth |
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On 13-Jul-2007, hhyapster@gmail.com wrote:
| Quote: |
Darwinism is what this world is all about.
|
Darwin contributed to a science which lends enrichment to our lives... That
hardly translates in him being what the world is all about... Darwin's
science serves as a lightning rod for those who are less evolved than the
rest of us... If there is any potential for Darwin to be regarded as a
prophet by his supporters, then he is the false prophet instead.
--
Overheard:"If I am a friend of the family then I at least must be from
Texas. You shouldn't worry your pretty little head about politics, baby, if
it is something that you're curious about, just ask an adult and we'll keep
you informed." |
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Lorentz
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| Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 4:36 am Post subject: Re: Darwinism Is Becoming The West's Myth |
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On Jul 22, 4:19 pm, "brique" <briquen...@freeuk.c0m> wrote:
| Quote: |
Walter Bushell <pr...@oanix.com> wrote in message
news:proto-67D5C1.23001121072007@032-325-625.area1.spcsdns.net...
In article <1185065892.5455...@despina.uk.clara.net>,
"brique" <briquen...@freeuk.c0m> wrote:
Well, that would be the 'downside' of the 'Me Tarzan!' neo-darwinist
approach... sure the macho hunks go fight and generally indulge in often
fatal displays of their 'fitness' to breed..... but it's the wimps who stay
home and....um.... aid and confort.... the womenfolk who probably have a far
more successful strike rate, as it were.....
You haven't really been reading your neo-Darwinist literature. |
The wimps don't have it so easy. They have to compete with other
wimps. That's right, if there are no Tarzans, the number of wimps
grows. Each woman becomes surrounded by wimps all who want nooky. She
can't have children with all of them, she only has one uterus. So the
wimps crowd around her and get on each others' nerves. So each
individual wimp gene has almost no chance of reproducing. Unless, of
course, the wimp turns into a Tarzan.
What often happens is that there is a Tarzan gene on the same
chromosome as the wimp gene. It expresses itself only under certain
conditions. If a wimp gets surrounded by too many wimps, he turns into
a Tarzan and goes Rambo on the other wimps. The fittest ape is the one
who recognizes the best time to go ape. You know very well that human
beings often follow such a strategy. "I don't understand, he looked so
harmless."
Different animal populations evolve different timing procedures.
However, some animals make the equivalent transition at the same time.
Locusts alternate between gregers, a wimp-like grasshopper, and the
swarmers, the insect version of Tarzan. Basically, when a greger eats
too much greger shit, he turns into a swarmer. Very often that occurs
at the same time all over the meadow.
BTW: greger is short for gregarious. Gregarious locusts reproduce
faster than swarmers, even though it may not appear so. Swarmer
locusts fly all over the place and eat everything in sight, including
each other. Same species, same genome, different strategies. No
problem for evolutionary theory. Note that for thousands to millions
of years, neither greger or swarmer have destroyed the other. Same
genome, different strategies, different "fitness."
| Quote: |
But that does assume that the 'Me Tarzan' _is_ the fittest in survival
terms. Frankly, being as such tend to end up dead from meeting some other
tribes 'me Tarzan' contender.... perhaps evolution wants them out the way so
the 'wimps' and 'defectvies' can ensure the survival of the species
unhindered.....
What is fooling you is the idea that wimps and Tarzan's have to |
have different genomes. They can have the same genome, which express
themselves differently at different times. A genome like a CD can
store different programs, both of which have evolved.
I recommend as a first book on the subject, "The Selfish
Gene" by Richard Dawkins. I recommend all his books written before he
turned Tarzan. He used to be such a wonderful wimp.... |
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brique
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| Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 9:14 am Post subject: Re: Darwinism Is Becoming The West's Myth |
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Lorentz <drosen0000@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1185147417.101370.167030@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: |
On Jul 22, 4:19 pm, "brique" <briquen...@freeuk.c0m> wrote:
Walter Bushell <pr...@oanix.com> wrote in message
news:proto-67D5C1.23001121072007@032-325-625.area1.spcsdns.net...
In article <1185065892.5455...@despina.uk.clara.net>,
"brique" <briquen...@freeuk.c0m> wrote:
Well, that would be the 'downside' of the 'Me Tarzan!' neo-darwinist
approach... sure the macho hunks go fight and generally indulge in often
fatal displays of their 'fitness' to breed..... but it's the wimps who
stay
home and....um.... aid and confort.... the womenfolk who probably have a
far
more successful strike rate, as it were.....
You haven't really been reading your neo-Darwinist literature.
The wimps don't have it so easy. They have to compete with other
wimps. That's right, if there are no Tarzans, the number of wimps
grows. Each woman becomes surrounded by wimps all who want nooky. She
can't have children with all of them, she only has one uterus. So the
wimps crowd around her and get on each others' nerves. So each
individual wimp gene has almost no chance of reproducing. Unless, of
course, the wimp turns into a Tarzan.
What often happens is that there is a Tarzan gene on the same
chromosome as the wimp gene. It expresses itself only under certain
conditions. If a wimp gets surrounded by too many wimps, he turns into
a Tarzan and goes Rambo on the other wimps. The fittest ape is the one
who recognizes the best time to go ape. You know very well that human
beings often follow such a strategy. "I don't understand, he looked so
harmless."
Different animal populations evolve different timing procedures.
However, some animals make the equivalent transition at the same time.
Locusts alternate between gregers, a wimp-like grasshopper, and the
swarmers, the insect version of Tarzan. Basically, when a greger eats
too much greger shit, he turns into a swarmer. Very often that occurs
at the same time all over the meadow.
BTW: greger is short for gregarious. Gregarious locusts reproduce
faster than swarmers, even though it may not appear so. Swarmer
locusts fly all over the place and eat everything in sight, including
each other. Same species, same genome, different strategies. No
problem for evolutionary theory. Note that for thousands to millions
of years, neither greger or swarmer have destroyed the other. Same
genome, different strategies, different "fitness."
But that does assume that the 'Me Tarzan' _is_ the fittest in survival
terms. Frankly, being as such tend to end up dead from meeting some
other
tribes 'me Tarzan' contender.... perhaps evolution wants them out the
way so
the 'wimps' and 'defectvies' can ensure the survival of the species
unhindered.....
What is fooling you is the idea that wimps and Tarzan's have to
have different genomes. They can have the same genome, which express
themselves differently at different times. A genome like a CD can
store different programs, both of which have evolved.
I recommend as a first book on the subject, "The Selfish
Gene" by Richard Dawkins. I recommend all his books written before he
turned Tarzan. He used to be such a wonderful wimp....
|
I guess the genome for my tongue got lost on the way to my cheek..... it was
a mildly sarcastic view of one of the versions of 'Darwinism' oft proposed
by some.
It was intended to scoff at all the daft notions that Darwins Theory of
Natural Selection provides justification for politically-based tinkering
with humanity.
Now, if you dont mind, I'll go aid and comfort some lonely golf-widow...
The Open went to a play-off, so much pain and suffering, so little
time...... |
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Day Brown
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| Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 11:12 am Post subject: Re: Darwinism Is Becoming The West's Myth |
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It seems that the hominid environment has changed. The Transnationals
have discovered the women offer a lower cost of management. Now that
the cost of labor is trivial, that has received their attention. There
are also reports that women running small business are far more often
successful.
Moreover, the most recent spectacular successes have not been founded
by classic alpha male robber barons, but by wimpy geeks. And out of
this, a new corporate culture has emerged with the geeks providing the
innovation, and the women taking care of the routine business
operations, and instead of the classic top down steep pyramidal power
structure with a male CEO, now its a peer-to-peer network with the
women telling the geeks what the market needs invented, and the geeks
working out the technicalities.
So- after 5000 years of rule by the warrior class, that show is over
because the geeks gave them ever more powerful weapons so that now,
even women can use them. The brave heart, strong right arm, sword in
hand... no longer cuts it, and nothing the angry alpha males can say,
here or anywhere else, is going to change that.
Moreover, the smart career women have realized that all the men they
know that look like they mite be suitable sperm donors... already got
married to stupid bimbos who didnt wait for their college degrees to
use cunts. Some smart women have married the divorced men who
realized what a mistake they made, but then learned what a thankless
job it is raising the progeny of airheads.
S0- this is where Darwin comes in. The smart, successful career women
are going to fertility clinics, to select among thousands of sperm
donations for the DNA markers they think their kids would most benefit
by in the competition they will face in the global market. The sperm
of macho warriors dont make the cut. Eugenics is already going on, but
not by any kind of top down Nazi political system, but a bottom up
network of women wanting the best for their kids... starting with the
DNA endowment.
And, whether the Liberals like it or not, that choice is overwhemingly
for Y Chromosome lines from Northern Europe. Course, since so many of
the sperm donors are from medical and law school students, some of the
Y chromosome lines are "Jewish". |
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