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SJAB1958
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 Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 9:02 am Post subject: Re: An Important Question |
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On 25 Jun, 04:24, Al Klein <ruk...@pern.invalid> wrote:
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On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 09:05:28 -0700, SJAB1958 <balf...@hotmail.com
wrote:
And therefore subject to the same natural laws as everything else, so
no more miracles. :P
If you define a miracle as "something that can't happen" miracles
can't happen. If you define a miracle as "something that can happen",
who cares if a miracle occurs?
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I dont define a miracle as "something that can't happen", I define it
as something that is a clear violation of the known natural laws of
the universe, that is completely different.
e.g. burning bush not consumed by fire (and possessing the powers of
speech and reason), or the feeding of a large number of people with
food barely sufficient for a handful of people, or raising someone
from the dead after they have been rotting in their tomb for several
days. |
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SJAB1958
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 9:10 am Post subject: Re: An Important Question |
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On 24 Jun, 21:15, Padraic Brown <elemti...@yahoo.com> wrote:
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On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 00:47:01 -0700, SJAB1958 <balf...@hotmail.com
wrote:
[followups set accordingly]
Apart from the various religious texts and mythologies of the world,
what empirical evidence
"Apart from" means that you accept "various religious texts" as
"empirical evidence". Therefore, you've already answered your own
question: i.e., the empirical evidence you're looking for is in the
various religion texts.
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No it doesnt suggest that, I was attempting to clarify the difference
between the alleged evidence of the religious texts and mythologies
and what would be considered as empirical evidence.
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That said...
is there for the existence of a supernatural
realm
The answer is no. By definition, the supernatural is beyond present
natural means of study, so the very notion of empirical evidence
itself is senseless. The overall question itself is rather beside the
point, as the supernatural is a matter of faith, not science.
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But according to those that believe, such things do exist, and there
are those that claim to have proof to support their beliefs. I had
hoped that my OP would encourage them to present their evidence. But
so far not a single one has done so.
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inhabited by an entity (or entities) that are capable of
manipulating matter and energy in the physical universe while
remaining independent from it?
The best, and only required, evidence for an entity capable of doing
the things you are interested in is the very universe itself: the
product of some event we call creation. (This in no way means that the
entity in question is necessarily "supernatural", though it would be
fair to say that this entity is "beyond our ken".)
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Unfortunately this is not evidence for the existence of such an
entity, because as far as I know there is no label on the universe
(that we can see) that says "Made by God".
As the universe contains all that is natural (as far as we know) then
within the limits of human knowledge, anything outside the boundaries
of the universe is by definition the supernatural, and at the same
time "beyond our ken".
But who is this 'ken' of whom you speak, and what - if anything - does
he have to do with the existence of anything?
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Michael Gray
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 10:07 am Post subject: Re: An Important Question |
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On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 21:02:15 -0700, SJAB1958 <balfres@hotmail.com>
wrote:
- Refer: <1182744135.955996.100990@u2g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>
| Quote: |
On 25 Jun, 04:24, Al Klein <ruk...@pern.invalid> wrote:
On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 09:05:28 -0700, SJAB1958 <balf...@hotmail.com
wrote:
And therefore subject to the same natural laws as everything else, so
no more miracles. :P
If you define a miracle as "something that can't happen" miracles
can't happen. If you define a miracle as "something that can happen",
who cares if a miracle occurs?
I dont define a miracle as "something that can't happen", I define it
as something that is a clear violation of the known natural laws of
the universe, that is completely different.
e.g. burning bush not consumed by fire (and possessing the powers of
speech and reason), or the feeding of a large number of people with
food barely sufficient for a handful of people, or raising someone
from the dead after they have been rotting in their tomb for several
days.
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There is no good evidence of any miracle ever occurring.
-- |
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Christopher Morris
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 10:37 am Post subject: Re: An Important Question |
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"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:h5du73pn3jjdd28ib48aj0dtaqe33euhht@4ax.com...
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On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 01:45:08 -0700, SJAB1958 <balfres@hotmail.com
wrote:
Well being as all such entities mentioned in all religious texts and
mythologies are described as existing beyond the physical universe
Since that's a logical (as well as lexical) impossibility, any god
claimed to "live there" can't exist.
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There is nothing illogical about it no more so than anyone trying to claim
they know for certain that a God exists. All are open questions without a
proveable answer one ways or the other.
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then logically the realm/dimension/whatever that they inhabit can only
be referred to as the supernatural, unless of course you have a better
word in mind.
"Nonexistent" would be one. Nothing can possibly exist outside
everything that exists.
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Really, I would not tell that to a Quantum Physicist he might laugh at you.
See outside the physical world there is a lot no one has figured out yet,
especially when you consider there are an infinite number of universes and
dimensions. Thus, when someone says he or she knows anything he or she is
either a liar or a fool. Which one are you Al? |
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